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Can someone tell me: if you think you could get your dog off that flyer and picked up one of the other birds first, would you have done that? Would there have been an advantage in this test to have a dog who could be convinced to come off the flyer for another bird?

Just asking. Have no clue.
Primary selection is a very difficult task. If you don't train on it - and very few of us do - then don't expect success if you try it at a trial.
 
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My personal experience with primary selection is that it usually failed when I needed it the most. Gave it up for secondary selection. Abandon both in a test/trial situation and let the dog get the bird they want. Your experience may vary.
 

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Primary selection is a very difficult task. If you don't train on it - and very few of us do - then don't expect success if you try it at a trial.
Difficult, time consuming, and sometimes destructive without much evidence that it provides any competitive advantage which is why we abandoned it 30 years ago. The single advantage is providing an extra layer of control on line for a dog who is not inclined to submit to the handler’s desires.
 

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Difficult, time consuming, and sometimes destructive without much evidence that it provides any competitive advantage which is why we abandoned it 30 years ago. The single advantage is providing an extra layer of control on line for a dog who is not inclined to submit to the handler’s desires.
Dr. Ed,
Please elaborate on why you say "time consuming and sometimes destructive".
 

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My personal experience with primary selection is that it usually failed when I needed it the most. Gave it up for secondary selection. Abandon both in a test/trial situation and let the dog get the bird they want. Your experience may vary.
On this particular Q, my dog looked like she "wanted" the middle short retired, so I thought, what the heck, go for it. She promptly missed the bird, winded the flyer from way off and got it from the backside. After a pretty lengthy hunt on the long stand out bird, I lined her up for the middle short retired. In her mind, she had already used up that line and gotten the bird, so it was a handle for us.

Lesson learned: I should have lined her up on the flyer, instead of letting her choose her own "go bird." Probaly would have worked out better in hindsight!!

On birds 2 and 3, I generally don't try to talk the dog out of where they want to go.
 

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On this particular Q, my dog looked like she "wanted" the middle short retired, so I thought, what the heck, go for it. She promptly missed the bird, winded the flyer from way off and got it from the backside. After a pretty lengthy hunt on the long stand out bird, I lined her up for the middle short retired. In her mind, she had already used up that line and gotten the bird, so it was a handle for us.

Lesson learned: I should have lined her up on the flyer, instead of letting her choose her own "go bird." Probaly would have worked out better in hindsight!!

On birds 2 and 3, I generally don't try to talk the dog out of where they want to go.
My understanding of primary selection would be to get the shortest bird first and not the flyer. What you describe is what I normally experienced.
 

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Dr. Ed,
Please elaborate on why you say "time consuming and sometimes destructive".
I’ll try…
Reasons for first bird selection
1) to get the short retired gun first before going long for a mark
2) to gain more control over the dog on line
What does primary or first bird selection entail?
First bird selection almost always involves a conflict between a shorter dead memory bird and a longer flyer. To accomplish this you must setup the scenario frequently which means shooting lots of flyers. It is a learned skill that should be revisited in training regularly if you expect to be successful with it in competition.
Why did we abandon it?
It was a risk/reward situation. Constantly pulling dogs off the last bird down (often a flyer) may have unintended consequences such as not watching the flyer fall as well, confusion as to what bird to get if your lining skills are imprecise, and creating confusion about marking. We and others discovered that you can get the short bird successfully without dealing with all the moving parts in training to become proficient at first bird selection. I will site two examples from personal experience, both dogs are in the RHOF.
NAFC-FC Trumarc’s Zip Code “Cody” is/was the most intelligent dog either of us and others have ever known. He was very accomplished at first bird selection and 100% reliable at the field trial.
FC-AFC Trumarc’s Hot Pursuit (Percy) had more retrieving desire than either of us and many others have seen. In training he was a reliable selector but on the weekend not always so reliable. I recall an Amateur that Arnie and Linda Irwin judged when he had a very good 1st series but never got the bird I thought I sent him for. Could the time we spent working on first bird selection been better allocated to other tasks? I think so. Keep in mind that at that time we were very committed to two National caliber dogs and we trained hard 5-6 days a week. In my opinion first bird selection is something only the most talented professionals and skilled and dedicated amateurs should pursue and only with a clear identifiable goal and an understanding of the potential side effects.
 

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In hunt tests we have out of order flyers frequently. Pulling off that is sufficiently difficult enough for me. I can't imagine the number of flyers it would take to accomplish first selection. And I'm with EdA. Risk/reward doesn't seem practical. Especially for an amateur like me.
 

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Discussion Starter · #30 ·
I think that I may have found an issue, so I'm going to do wagon wheel lining and handling drills for awhile . The marks will continue but only after the drills. Does anyone have any other suggestions?
 

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Does anyone have any other suggestions?
Keep it positive and fun for her. Drills are great and most of us should do more of them. They can get boring and monotonous though, especially when you are training alone.

Speaking of selection, last weekend KCRC Am Sedalia Mo 4th series water marks. Triple with 2 retired;
wind 5-10 from the left. Shot middle, left, right. Middle and left retired.
I think the line was actually a couple feet left of where I have it illustrated here.
For whatever reason, Jake did not watch the middle bird very well, worried about the long mark on the left I guess.
After picking up the right bird I tried to talk him into the middle bird. He wanted the left retired but finally lined up nicely for the middle mark. At least I thought he did, as soon as I sent him he took a hard turn and went to the left bird like he was on a rail.
Lined him up for the middle mark again and he took a line behind the gun and hunted deep. They never fade with wind, square a hill or cheat water when you want them too.:cry: I had to handle.
When it was over, Ted had kicked all our asses.
Cloud Sky Plant Water Natural landscape
 

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Internet training is a tough business and then escalate to internet dog training.
Ponder a bit
Many amateurs don’t take time as pooch comes off the truck to 1) warm up, 2) connect with pooch. Lots of reasons for this but there all bad
Consider a session to connect ; walk at heel , sit , do here and heels. Till your exhausted or pooch finally looks up at u and says I give.
Try this with consistency before field work.

Now I have my own place to train however this time of year I ll road before land or water work.
I d like them tired and having to dig deeper as in 4th series last bird. Consider you ve done the amateur 1st and 2nd and the open wb today and somehow the marks are in play.
U need to be fit and mentally tough plus the dog is tired I work toward that scenario

Q dogs are tough ; young and brilliant today and a dufess tomorrow. Your looking for consistency. There’s the rare ones out there but never mine. It’s tough to be all age ready before 5.
I m an amateur and work hard at good nutrition, good set ups and proper rest for me and pooch. I do have the young dog work done by good by a good pro.

Think about high school football, lots of good players then less in college and even less in the nfl. After the national open and Amateur championships. The next most coveted title is that FC and AFC. It s tough
Good luck and chin up.
Recently I heard a well respected pro say all these dogs have flaws ; some just cover them up better than others.
Dk
 

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Discussion Starter · #33 ·
Internet training is a tough business and then escalate to internet dog training.
Ponder a bit
Many amateurs don’t take time as pooch comes off the truck to 1) warm up, 2) connect with pooch. Lots of reasons for this but there all bad
Consider a session to connect ; walk at heel , sit , do here and heels. Till your exhausted or pooch finally looks up at u and says I give.
Try this with consistency before field work.

Now I have my own place to train however this time of year I ll road before land or water work.
I d like them tired and having to dig deeper as in 4th series last bird. Consider you ve done the amateur 1st and 2nd and the open wb today and somehow the marks are in play.
U need to be fit and mentally tough plus the dog is tired I work toward that scenario

Q dogs are tough ; young and brilliant today and a dufess tomorrow. Your looking for consistency. There’s the rare ones out there but never mine. It’s tough to be all age ready before 5.
I m an amateur and work hard at good nutrition, good set ups and proper rest for me and pooch. I do have the young dog work done by good by a good pro.

Think about high school football, lots of good players then less in college and even less in the nfl. After the national open and Amateur championships. The next most coveted title is that FC and AFC. It s tough
Good luck and chin up.
Recently I heard a well respected pro say all these dogs have flaws ; some just cover them up better than others.
Dk
Dave , I'm not going by internet training just experience. I know that if your dog won't follow your leg they are not going to go on the right line . We are also doing nothing but singles in easy training areas and hard ones too . I fully understand that trainers can't do the fine tuning with the number of dogs they have. Either way we will find out next Thursday when I run her in a qualified in Gainesville .
 

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Dave , I'm not going by internet training just experience. I know that if your dog won't follow your leg they are not going to go on the right line . We are also doing nothing but singles in easy training areas and hard ones too . I fully understand that trainers can't do the fine tuning with the number of dogs they have. Either way we will find out next Thursday when I run her in a qualified in Gainesville .
Best of luck at the trial! Have fun and let us know how you two do. :)
 

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Good luck
 

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Discussion Starter · #37 ·
We had a productive week of training, Boo is starting to really like the lining drill but has a ways to go before she's smooth we have done single marks and blinds . We continue training today and tomorrow then a day off before the event , will we do good in the Qual we are going to try are best but this is a journey.
 

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I've had a few pros tell me that my dog can mark , but the Lone Star event is the only one she has made it to the second series.
EE doesn't have rose colored glasses when it comes to dog performance, in the competitive world that's the final decision, what the record consistently shows is what the dog is(in competitive terms). Nothing wrong with pulling your dog if it's not meeting the expectations that you had especially if they're reasonable expectations that you often see other dogs and pros achieving. Bring your dog home and assess it's ability in your own eyes and then go from there, nothing wrong with that. Enjoy her being home!
 
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