[Robert S. Libberton]

I am curious to know what the breeders of this forum believe about test breeding. Here is the scenerio, you have a young 9 month old girl who is a SH and is preparing to run derbies. You obviously dont breed on the first heat and most likely she wont come into a 6-9 month heat due to her being so athletic. To keep the flamers at bay, lets assume you have Penn hip xrayed hips on her and she is in a range of .5 or something like that (OFA prelim Good or better) , and CERFed eyes.
:?: What are your thoughts for breeding a girl in the 18-20 month time frame is she is proven (QAA, Derby list, or MH).
:?: Is the cost too great that she might or (will) change with becoming a mother too soon?
:?: Is it adviseable to see if she can be a producer by breeding and possble sacraficing 4-5 months of training/ trialing? This would give you the time to do something with the puppies to prove she has ability, (QAA, Derby list, or MH)

Thanks for your time and writtem thoughts, PM me if you dont want your thoughts public.

 

[JohnS]

Why waste 3 months of your dogs derby eligibility for rearing pups? Are you in THAT big of a hurry? Prove your dog first, then breed it. When YUGO cars came out they were suppose to be the real deal, all hyped up and all, what did they turn out to be? Where are they now? Dont try to sell pups on what your dog "might" be....make your dog what she is going to be, then you have proof instead of promises. By that I mean take your dog to her fullest potential then breed her. Sure Derby points, and QAA is some proof, but if your dog is capable of AA or open work, don't try to sell pups on "she could be doing AA or open work" if she can be doing it, do it then you can say she has done the work...a lot better than saying she could be doing it.

 

[Robert S. Libberton]

John are you a breeder? What is your idea of proven? Is QAA/ MH not enough? I am not in a hurry to do anything and dislike your tone, I am simply posing a question to see what people think about this situation. I dont think that the derby is all-important in consideration to the AA goal, I would be more concerned with looking at training a bitch for AA-work and competing when you can, campaigning a dog if you think there great.

 

[Lisa Van Loo]

Not sure what you mean by test breed?

Lisa

 

[Robert S. Libberton]

Look at breeding your bitch to a proven male that has had success in like breedings of your female's pedigree, (Lean Mac bitch to a proven harley sire), Keep a pup to train yourself and send one with a pro, try and sell the dogs to buyers active in the game and offer incentives to buyers to achieve results.

Lisa Van Loo
Not sure what you mean by test breed?

 

[Lisa Van Loo]

Thanks for the clarification.

Question #2, is she intended primarily as a competition prospect, or as a breeding prospect?

Lisa

 

[JohnS]

I don't like the idea of breeding a dog before 2 years old for any reason. Yeah, Penn hip and all, but will Penn hipp guarantee your dog to score good or better? Will they reimburse you for losses if she doesn't score good or better? Which YOU WILL HAVE TO DO. :? Your idea is all based on "what might be" instead of what IS. I find that bad business altogether. Sorry if abrasive, but it is just not a good idea. I certainly wouldn't buy a pup.

 

[SueLab]

Although I am not a breeder I did have 1 litter this past year. I will think very hard before I might do another breeding.

You will give up more than 4 months of training! To avoid any exposure to anything that might be going around (herpes, kennel cough - a nasty one this past year, and other sicknesses) I did not train or expose my bitch to other dogs at all after the breeding, during the gestation and not until the pups were at their new homes at 7 weeks of age...a total of 4 months. The pups are now 6 months old and my bitch is just now getting back to where she was BEFORE the breeding! Look at a possible 12 month loss.

Just another thought, why are you wanting to breed? Money? A pup?

Just think of this: There are many bitches out there that are wonderful specimans, already have spectacular performance records and have produced nice offspring. Why risk your bitch - FC/AFC Lululu just died having 5 pups?

The cost of a pup is less than what you are going to go through raising and socializing a litter correctly not only in time but in testing (OFA both elbows and hips, eyes) whelping management (possiblility of a C section or your dog's death ) and puppy needs (dew claws, shots, illnesses). And how about the stud fees and breeding costs? The puppy money (what little it is for the work) is not yours until AFTER the guarantee time has run out or you know that all pups are satisfactory...

Placing puppies in suitable homes is your responsibility. I did not breed until I knew that I had more than 50% of a normal litter placed in great performance homes. It was important to me to try to insure that each puppy have a permanent home.

What I wanted was to make enough to purchase a nice FT quality pup a couple of years from now OR to keep a nice pup for the same purpose...either would have been ok. I was up every morning at 4:30 am and every day carried out a whole garbage bag full of waste paper from the whelping area...just had 6 puppies. Can't imagine the waste and work from 8-10 pups! I spent many hours with the pups to insure that they were well socialized. They were raised in my home.

Unless YOU are willing to dedicate 7 weeks of your time with the pups, I would not consider it. When I look for a dog, I want the area to be immaculate, the puppies to be well socialized and raised with people, and that they come from proven performers....the bitch line being most important. I'm afraid that being a SH is not enough proof of performance for me.

Good luck in your decision.

 

[Lisa S.]

Don't understand what the rush is. Enjoy her, prove her and if you decide you want a pup from her breed her at about 3-4 years old. Time will also show you what traits you would like to better in her offspring.
You may also find you prefer a different sire who is a better compliment for her than the sire you prefer now.

 

[Granddaddy]

If you get a female QAA by 18 mos, then by all means continue her campaigning to get her FC. There are lots of FC studs around & FC bitches are few & far between, especially those that are having pups. An FC bitch bred to an NFC or NAFC stud will likely bring big bucks if money is a motive and provide a good return for your patience. During that time getting her FC will tell you a lot about her & help you match her better for a successful breeding.

 

[Lisa Van Loo]

Here is my take in this purely hypothetical:

If she was purchased primarily to be my competition dog, then I would not breed her early. I would carry on with the Grand Plan. If she was my once-in-a-lifetime bitch, I might never breed her at all. That is just me.

If she was purchased to be primarily a brood, then I would prove her capabilities to my satisfaction (not being one to rely on pedigree alone). Then I would breed her early (around 2 years) to be sure she could reproduce. Having satisfied myself that she is fertile and a good mother, and now having pups to keep an eye on their progress, I would then go about campaigning her while keeping tabs on that first litter. All things being OK, then after another year and a half to 2 years, I would then retire her to brood bitch status.

As far as breeding before 2 years old, I just don't see the point. I have never had my bitches mis-cycle because of being athletic. Gopher is a ribbed-up stick of a dog, but she cycles every 6 months religiously. It's not the same with dogs as it is with humans.

Lisa

 

[Julie R.]

I voted no for this bitch and can't think of any circumstances where I would breed a bitch under 2. That said, if I had a nice competition bitch I would want her to have a litter between age 2 and 3 just because then you "buy" a few more years in case she does turn out to be special and you do want to breed her again. I guess in a way that would be a test breeding. I think it's too hard and too risky to breed them for the first time later in life (say age 6 or 7). I agree with the others that say go ahead and get the bitch proven in the competition arena but most FT bitches are older by the time they title. So by "test breeding" when she is young and healthy and having a litter is easiest for her even if she is not titled but at least you would have your clearances in place and some indication of her performance. My dog is a very different animal now than she was at 18 months. I would have thought she had FT or at least MH potential then and now we both know better

My dogs are not field trial dogs and they are Chessies--Chessy pups are a little easier to sell right now because there aren't nearly as many nice Chessy litters out there like there are with the Labs, especially out of titled bitches (mine is only a JH but she is also a show champion and has her CD); I expect she'll get her SH and CDX as well; she's well bred and "different" bloodlines than most of the top HT and FT CBRs. I also have a pup out of her which would make anyone puppy shopping run screaming but she has time to improve and, hopefully, be a credit to her sire and dam.