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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Are there still any trainers out there who don't use the ecollar in their training? If so, I would be interested in learning about their methods to train their dog to stop reliably on a whistle command.

I am aware of training on a leash initially, also the Mini-T lesson where the dog is stopped on an long lead at the apex of the baseball field. But inevitably there will be some point when you can no longer use a long lead - what do you do then? Also, I have met dogs who were so sensitive that the use of a long lead to stop them had a severe impact on their willingness to work at all.

A friend of mine has a dog who used to stop fairly reliably at shorter distances like 30-40 yards but now in the pattern field it has degraded to the point where it is becoming worse and worse instead of better.

Any help is greatly appreciated.
Chris
 
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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
no collar

Our first Grand Master was trianed without a collar when she was in the field and would slip a whistle my husband would go out and get her take her back to the spot where she first refused the whistle , he would blow the sit whistle a couple times and give her a couple good swats on the rump ( we used a wiffle bat) than have her sit there and he would walk back and continue with the blind, you would be surprised how well they understand. SHe refused an over once off a point he told her sit took out his wallet jumped in the water swam out to her drug her back to the spot where he last gave the command than he swatted her while pulling her in the over giving a verbal over. Than he took her back to the original spot and told her SIT he swam back to the shore turned gave the over cast and she flew into the water. ITs a lot harder using the tennis shoe method over a collar but if you want a dog for hunting or hunt tests its not easy but it can be done. This dog also passed the NAHRA Invitational.
 

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Re: no collar

gmhr1 said:
...when she was in the field and would slip a whistle my husband would go out and get her take her back to the spot where she first refused the whistle , he would blow the sit whistle a couple times and give her a couple good swats on the rump ( we used a wiffle bat) than have her sit there and he would walk back and continue with the blind, you would be surprised how well they understand. SHe refused an over once off a point he told her sit took out his wallet jumped in the water swam out to her drug her back to the spot where he last gave the command than he swatted her while pulling her in the over giving a verbal over. Than he took her back to the original spot and told her SIT he swam back to the shore turned gave the over cast and she flew into the water. ITs a lot harder using the tennis shoe method over a collar but if you want a dog for hunting or hunt tests its not easy but it can be done. ...
The short answer is that you use long checkcords & have to be in good shape.

You also have to hope you have a dog that won't bolt when the dog sees you coming to shake them up. And that you have a biddable/tractable dog. With tennis shoe method beyond checkcord distance, the remote correction is always delayed. Delay will usually result in confusion resulting in slower, less effective training, not to mention the inconvenience to the trainer - especially in water training. Most non-collar trainers, at least those that I was exposed to prior to the modern e-collar, always kept a young dog on a checkcord for a much longer period & worked shorter distances for the first 2+yrs of the dog's training life in order to maintain checkcord control & condition the dog to a proper response to commands.

IMO, it is all these ifs, ands & buts that make e-collar training so much more effective & humane. With an e-collar, the correction can be made immediately when the infraction accords. The correction can be very precise/timely & enable the dog to understand the correction much better. That said, the e-collar does sometimes result in a trainer not teaching & schooling the young dog thoroughly with the checkcord & heeling stick at shorter distances before progressing to longer distances.
 

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At our house we condition response through repetition and consistent insistence on compliance, and voice control becomes remote control. No one pays much attention when a habitually foul-mouthed individual curses at the top of his lungs, but when the preacher mutters a curse, it gets every one's undivided attention. So we do the great bulk of our tennis-shoeing while pups are still quite easy to run down and accompany some (not all) of those corrections with a harsh, but no louder than need be, "Hey!" Tone, not volume, being the key.

As long as we're consistent about requiring compliance from the git-go, the pup is soon conditioned to respond correctly or expect unpleasant consequence. And as long as we practice the voice control to keep a harsh verbal tone meaningful and associated with correction, a spoken word is a remarkably effective, instantly available remote correction in the rarer-than-many-seem-to-think instance that a well-conditioned-to-respond dog decides to slip a whistle.

(This "Amish" trainer has never check-corded a retriever and only rarely fooled with one on a pointing pup.)
 
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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
no collar

I guess it also depends on the dog, we didnt use a checkcord but we did a lot of obedience with her and she knew the whistle meant to sit and she didn't make many mistakes, she didn't want to see her Daddy coming out into the field, but She never bolted when she saw my husband coming towards her and there was no confusion, she understood the correction. She was a great handling dog because we spent so much time teaching .
Cindy
 

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I didn't use a checkcord or e-collar either. Older dog was easy because she knew sit, so the fact that the command had to be complied to whether at my side or at a distance wasn't a problem. I just made it a game w/ lots of praise and if I did need to go at first & place her in a sit position I made sure I was never harsh about it.

What Ricj=k said about tone of voice is so important. That's our e-collar I guess.

My new pup is w/ someone else right now, but I did have him sitting to a whistle before he left & did it basically the same way. Starting w/ sitting at heel position, walking sits & then doing "come ins" where he had to sit to the whistle. It's a thrill the first time you send them on a back & the lightbulb goes on & they turn & sit facing you waiting for a command.

As for training this w/out the collar-doesn't everyone teach first w/out the collar anyway & give collar corrections only if it's 100% clear to the dog what you want? I still haven't held a transmitter, so maybe I'm wrong.

M
 

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In the olden days a round of number 8's from a 12 gauge at about 80 yards usually helped the stop to the whistle problem. I have been present when this was done, but, never shot my dog with a 12 gauge. I did however use "ratshot" from a .22 caliber pistol on many occasions.

Circa now if this hasn't turned your stomache you are hard core!

The slowest way and (it has been many many years since I have used this method) if the dog defies the whistle "run" out to the dog, grab the dog , then drag him back to the place he refused the whistle. Swat him a couple of times, blow the whistle sit , walk back to the line, give the whistle sit again and give the cast. Re-inforce all this by having a lead over your shoulder, heeling the dog around, stop, whistle sit and swat the dog on the backside using the lead( we used to use a quirt , a whip of sorts used to flush birds) We also used a short traffic lead about 18" attached to your belt as a whip.

Another method I used was to put two leads about 15 feet long on a choke collar. One person trails behind, the other trots at the heel position, a quick stop is done, a whistle sit is given and both leads a tightened up at the same time forcing the dog into a sitting psoition.

There were many FC's , AFC's and MH dogs trained this way. Of course the distance was much shorter for the tests and I was much younger!
One dog I trained this way was a non-collar dog (A Golden) he won a Amateur all-age and a few more points, but, couldn't get the final total needed and was a MH too. In our group at the time was a a couple of AFC's and A FC/AFC dog all trained the same way. I got into the collar program about 25 or 30 years ago and would NEVER go back to conventional training or the "tennis shoe" method as it was called. I just can't understand in this day and age of superior breeding, better techniques, smarter trainers why anyone would still use the "Tennis shoe method" except for a few very talented , ultra sensitive young dogs of Derby age. Having said that I would still introduce these dogs to the collar
when training to higher levels.

Earl
 

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criquetpas wrote:

Having said that I would still introduce these dogs to the collar
when training to higher levels.
My new dog has been cc'd & it's going to be part of his training.

M
 
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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
That has been very helpful, thanks a lot to everyone. I will recommend my friend to take a step back and proceed as advised.

Earl, one remaining questions with regard to your method of using two 15 foot leads. I am confused by your remark that the other (i.e. the handler) trots at the heel position - for this he wouldn't need a 15 foot lead. Is the dog not actually in the middle between handler and helper? Could you please explain the scenario?

Christian
 

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Christian said:
That has been very helpful, thanks a lot to everyone. I will recommend my friend to take a step back and proceed as advised.

Earl, one remaining questions with regard to your method of using two 15 foot leads. I am confused by your remark that the other (i.e. the handler) trots at the heel position - for this he wouldn't need a 15 foot lead. Is the dog not actually in the middle between handler and helper? Could you please explain the scenario?

Christian
YES, you are pulling in opposite directions to force the dog to sit on the spot! The trailer following pulls towards him, the heeler pulls towards him.
The idea is to get the dog to not so gentle sit NOW, blowing the whistle, saying sit and pulling at the same time. When I first started using the e-collar it was used as punishment or negative training only. You would burn the dog for failing to sit using the above method to prevent bolting.
It can also be used in a conventional sense with a leash correction.
 
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