RetrieverTraining.Net - the RTF banner
1 - 20 of 33 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,224 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I've been working on 8 handed cast (8HC) with my dog and he is really struggling. Right now I'm only working with 5 of the piles out (back, 2 angle backs and 2 over piles). One of the problems seems to be that he is reacting too quickly to my hand movement. In other words, he is only seeing the very start of the cast. As a result, he turns in the correct direction, but often mistakes an angle back for a straight back or an angle back for an over or an over for an angle back. The only cast he virtually never messes up is a straight back cast. He isn't autocasting based on my understanding of that term, but I think he would do much better if he sat there long enough to see my arm fully extended. The only idea I have is to hold him in place with a rope long enough to see the whole cast, but I don't know that that would help once I took the rope off.

He has been through baseball and double T and his cast accuracy in double T was outstanding. Any ideas?

Thanks.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,062 Posts
Go back to the long line. Before each cast give him an extra sit whistle as he sits waiting to be launched and then wait about 5 sec before casting him. Keep a bit of tension on the line to prevent him from antitipating the command until you have actually launched him.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
189 Posts
You can also use delayed cast. As you raise your are, blow the whistle. When your arm is fully extened in whatever direction wait a few seconds, step in that direction and verbally cast him. I believe that dogs cast much more accurately with a delayed cast. When he has mastered this, you can go to the instant cast. The transition back is very easy.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,168 Posts
That's more the ticket in my opinion. Try and gain the dog's focus this way and it should slow it down enough. At this point you don't want to get after the dog with pressure, just teach it!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
19 Posts
This is considered a No-No drill. Be patient, if he takes the wrong cast call him back with a "No Here" and repeat the cast. No collar pressure, just a "No Here", if he picks up the bumper immediatly sit him take the bumper from him and return to the middle and repeat the cast until he gets it. Until he is more consistent try and widely vary your casts, ie. left over followed by right back followed by right over followed by left angle back. That way each cast is not interfering with the previous cast. Just be patient and consistent.
Another thing to consider would be to spend a few minutes casting in front of a mirror just to make sure that you are really differentiating each cast. This way you can make sure you are not confusing the pup.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,224 Posts
Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Thanks for the advice everyone.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
533 Posts
I had this exact same problem. I think my dog thought her name was "no, here" after awhile. I was very patient and just took time with her. She would cast if I so much as moved my eye brow. What I did for a while, was just move around a bit on the line. Not a lot, but a shoulder lift, or a body lean, etc. if she went to go, I would say "sit" and start over. If she left while I was just lifting my hand, I would say "sit" and make her wait until the cast was done. This did turn into her not sure if she wanted to go, she was confused about when she could go...so I left the 8 handed casting for awhile and moved out to "walk out blinds" with her. I would take her on a walk with me while I planted bumpers, and then ran her from the line. I followed behind her while she was running and was close behind when I blew the whistle. If she took the wrong cast, I immediately blew the whistle again, said "no" and gave the cast again. I would do it 3-4 times sometimes until she got the hint that she'll get where she's going faster if she just paid attention to what I was trying to tell her.
Keep in mind, she had already been through several pattern blind fields.
After a while, she started casting nicely. And then I went back to the 8 handed casting after a few weeks of this, and low and behold, she was watching me. Now, she is a smart casting little dog.
I attributed it to a couple things...she is VERY birdy and lives for the retrieve (she just wants the darn thing-I just get in her way)...independent...and a bit immature.
A year later and she's now running some real nice all-age blinds and casting like a dream.
Be patient...it'll come.
Marcy
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
189 Posts
Everyone gets so wrapped up in these complex casting wheels. Remember the old adage, " There's no blind in the world you can't get with a true over and a true back, and many times with less whistles". Still true today.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,224 Posts
Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Guys, this just isn't going well at all. The first thing I tried after I posted this was just to simplify by going back to only having the back pile and two angle back piles out. In other words I eliminated the two over piles. This went beautifully (just as it did the first time), but when I put the over piles back out everything went down the crapper. Then I tried (different session, different day) using the check cord with a tie-out stake right in front of the dog's position, so I could really control him and try to keep him from whirling around on first movement. It didn't work very well. He still has too much ability to begin to turn and take his eyes off of me before I finish the cast. I really think that is the problem. I'm not in a position to be able to hammer him with the sit whistle every time I make a cast (as one person suggested). It might be a great idea, but it won't work for me due to the neighbors surrounding the 2 places I would most commonly do this drill. Any other ideas?

I thought about putting out just 2 piles (like right angle-back and right over) and just drilling those until he sees the difference. Then I could do left over and left angle back. The problem is that this still doesn't address the problem that the little knucklehead is just turning and taking his eyes off me too quickly.

Any ideas would be appreciated.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
553 Posts
watch your movements as well. Maybe widing thing out a bit.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
182 Posts
First off I have to ask "how well does your dog read you while doing the T drills?" If your T work is sloppy adding more piles is just going to confuse him even more. Are your cast in a regular pattern to where the dog learns which pile you will be casting him next? I like to keep the dog guessing and unsure to where I will send them next. Keeps them on there toes. Is the dog reading your body language before you cast him? You may be giving him subtle hints without you even knowing it. For example you may look at the pile before you send the dog.
Try marking"throw a bumper into" your angle back pile. Simplify just like you did to teach the overs.
You're going to have to be ready to use that whistle to stop him if you haven't completed your cast. Take your time. The longer he sits there the calmer he will get and the more he will focus.
You can teach the dogs to cue in on you as well. A short sit whistle works great to get them to look at you. Sometimes I may even cue them verbally by saying "watch".
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
318 Posts
Know this wont help but with my last dog once I introduced angle backs never could get reliable straight backs again - probably my bad training and with advice from here went back to left & right backs & straight overs which eventually helped. With new one am not going to teach angle backs - as someone said blinds can be done without it!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
189 Posts
Do the delayed cast! With the dog sitting on the mound, in addition to the delayed cast, nick him each time he takes his eyes from you. To do this, watch him intently. Each time he move is head, right or left, nick him on low intensity and blow the sit whistle. Alternately, you MUST teach the dog to look at you. Go up within 4-6' of the dog. Have your heeling stick. Put it straight out in front of you, pointing at the dog. Each time he moves his head to look to either side, tap him on the side of the nose and command "Watch". This isn't a big problem, you just have to be consistent. Right now the dog is doing things as he wants you to do them, you must dominate and teach him to dog them as YOU want, not HIM.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,045 Posts
This is a NO PRESSURE drill. You are just teaching. If you are having trouble simplify. Don't be using any collar pressure here!!!! There is no need!!!! He is not being disobedient, he is confused!!!!!

Sounds like you just need to S L O W D O W N ! !

Make sure that your bumpers are far enough that you can stop him with a "no here" and bring him back to the starting point.

Start with just overs & backs. Don't even have bumpers out for angle backs. When he is 100% reliable, then add the angle backs. First just add the bumpers out and cast to the back and over bumpers. When he is 100% reliable start trying to add an angle back cast.

I was taught to give vocal casts for Overs & Backs and silent casts for angle backs. It helps a dog just learning to distinguish the angle backs from the overs or backs.

Make sure your casting is precise, and that you aren't giving any false signals. Take a step in the direction of the cast may help distinguish the casts.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,168 Posts
Doug this is a focus issue with the dog taking it's eye's off the handler too quickly borderline auto-casting, not actual casting problem. My advice would be to try giving your casts with no body movement for the dog to read off of, and slow your movement's down, thus hopefully slowing the dog(not likely :roll: ), and hold your hand's infront of you also. The tapping on the nose with a crop is interesting, but I'd try a couple of other thing's before going to that.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,045 Posts
Misty Marsh Labradors said:
Doug this is a focus issue with the dog taking it's eye's off the handler too quickly borderline auto-casting, not actual casting problem. My advice would be to try giving your casts with no body movement for the dog to read off of, and slow your movement's down, thus hopefully slowing the dog(not likely :roll: ), and hold your hand's infront of you also. The tapping on the nose with a crop is interesting, but I'd try a couple of other thing's before going to that.
This is a learning issue with every high powered young dog that has a lot of desire. Especially, after doing force work and pile work. They want to retrieve a bumper right now!! It is just a matter of slowing them down and getting them to understand. They are trying to do the right thing. They just don't understand what the right thing is yet.

IMHO Using the collar isn't appropriate and won't help.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,564 Posts
Guys, this just isn't going well at all. The first thing I tried after I posted this was just to simplify by going back to only having the back pile and two angle back piles out. In other words I eliminated the two over piles. This went beautifully (just as it did the first time), but when I put the over piles back out everything went down the crapper.
I am assuming after things went well with the simplification, the over piles were added in the same session. Is that correct?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,268 Posts
If it were me, I'd try gonehuntin's delayed cast.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,015 Posts
It's called,beginning stages of "auto-casting", dog moves with ANY move from the handler. Try putting your arm straight up without a command, if the dog moves bring to sit position, count to three then give the vocal cast while the arm is straight up. Do the same with any overcasts. Try not to "sneak" the arm up , put the arm straight up slowly, give the command sit if the dog trys to turn. You can use watch me or sit or whatever gets the dog's attention or blow a sit whistle ,dog to watch. Try to get eye contact. You might want go back to the four point (four bumpers) N-S-E-W , until you get the dog sitting and watching you.

If you have a e-collar conditioned dog PM me and can give some additional information.
 
1 - 20 of 33 Posts
Top