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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I am currently fighting my dog with the distance at sit. He wants to come to me when I give him the short tweet. He is solid with the heeling and sit. I put him back in the spot he was supposed to plant his butt to the ground. We have done this for the past week and still at a dead end. I am walking him as instructed and letting him be a dog. I catch him off guard and give him the tweet. He acts like he is trouble and wants to come to me.. Any suggestions? I just correct him but not harsh.
 

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He sounds confused. Sounds like you used the whistle at heel sit and he is associating heel sit with the tweet.
Work him on sit only off heel. Say sit the toot whistle, then praise.
Will he sit at a distance if you say sit?
 

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I used a long rope, looped it around a post or tree. One end attached to pup, me holding the other end. Pup would try to come to me to sit, but couldn't because the rope around the pole stopped her, so she learned to sit where she was when I blew whistle or said sit. It didn't take long.
 

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It does sound like hes confused but also like he's uncomfortable sitting away from you as well. I don't know what you've done up to this point in your training but to simply answer your question I deal with this regularly when teaching whistle sit at distances. I simply start approaching tht dog while continuing to blow the sit whistle. When the dog complies I praise and repeat. Some dogs I also apply collar pressure while doing so. It just depends on where they are in training. It is hard to give you a hard and fast one size fits all solution not have ever seen your dog or not knowing what you have done up until this point. Distance erodes control so sometimes, even if they sit well at your side on the whistle they don't do so well away from you. Also, like in formal obedience, I start sitting the pup next to me and gradually walk away...increasing the pups comfort zone. Remember, we teach puppies to come back and that next to us is the "good" place to be when they are little. So teaching them to do things "away" from us could be scary to a young dog. Teach, teach, teach.
 

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If your dog is collar condition correctly try giving him the whistle at closer distances if he complies send him back and try a little further. When he gets to far that he doesn't want to comply when you blow the whistle. Blow a second whistle and give him a "nick" on the collar. Just a thOught of indirect pressure. Good luck
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Kodi is 5 now. I believe that he is confusing the "tweet" with the heel/sit. I think all the ideas presented here are good. He is collar conditioned. He is still a pup in the mind. I will try the nick if he does not comply. He will sit at 5 feet from me. He doesn't like to go out too far. He is a golden but he runs marks very well even at 200 yards. We need control for the blinds. There is no hard fast way. Maybe I will post a video to get a better opinion from the forum once the snow clears. :)
 

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If your dog is collar condition correctly try giving him the whistle at closer distances if he complies send him back and try a little further. When he gets to far that he doesn't want to comply when you blow the whistle. Blow a second whistle and give him a "nick" on the collar. Just a thOught of indirect pressure. Good luck
Wouldn't that be direct pressure, or pressure for the command given?

In any event, you might try this and see. It is taking mine a long time to learn to stop like he is supposed to, but we have time and I am learning to train the dog I have.
 

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What's he do if you give a verbal sit as opposed to the whistle? when you say heel/sit is that one command in your mind? Did you train him that when he's close to you and you give a tweet he's supposed to come to heel then sit, but you're expecting something else when he's farther away from you?
 

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If he's a 5 y.o. already with solid obedience, teach him the moving sit first. This is where you walk him at heel and blow the sit whistle then move away from him. At first he'll try to follow, but it won't take long to teach him the whistle means sit until you give another command. After he can do this while walking, do it at a jog, then a run. This seems to help them get the concept.

Rather than explain the rest, read this article from Pat Nolan's website; it's the best written explanation of teaching whistle sit there is.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
He heels very well and does sit on voice command. He sits on whistle very quickly. Just getting to him respond at a distance with the "instant" plant of the rear to the ground. He wants to move into me. I take him back to the spot gently without a word and tell him to sit. Then I circle him at about 30 to 40 feet go back to the heel position and release him.

The pressure comes from my verbal command and the tweet. He does look at me. I don't use the nick very much.

I did go to Pat Nolan's site today. His method is what I think I might try next.
 

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Dumb question - can he hear your whistle at the distance you are talking about?

He heels very well and does sit on voice command. He sits on whistle very quickly. Just getting to him respond at a distance with the "instant" plant of the rear to the ground. He wants to move into me. I take him back to the spot gently without a word and tell him to sit. Then I circle him at about 30 to 40 feet go back to the heel position and release him.

The pressure comes from my verbal command and the tweet. He does look at me. I don't use the nick very much.

I did go to Pat Nolan's site today. His method is what I think I might try next.
 

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Wouldn't that be direct pressure, or pressure for the command given?

In any event, you might try this and see. It is taking mine a long time to learn to stop like he is supposed to, but we have time and I am learning to train the dog I have.
Yes in a way but direct pressure would be more like if he would give the whistle and not sit and give him a nick. The next command followed with a nick would be indirect trying to get him to know what you eant
 

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At this point using the ecollar to teach the whistle sit is not appropriate, whether direct or indirect pressure! Not fair to the dog. The dog only knows to sit by the handler's side on the whistle. When you start teaching the remote sit nearly all of them try to come in to the handler because that's all they know. They have to be taught, and this is best done at short distances first, so that you can have success that the dog can be praised for. (see the Pat Nolan article, it explains it much better than I can).

Teaching the moving sit first is, IMO a good first step because it helps the dog learn to sit from a run, and that sit means sit whether he is at heel or not.
 

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I PM'd you, check your messages.
 

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I'm about to expose all of my ignorance here, and believe me that's a lot.

If the whistle blast means sit, and you blow the whistle and give a nick, whether it's the first whistle or the second, why is that not direct pressure? I thought a nick on the command you gave was direct pressure?

I thought indirect pressure was a nick on a different command than the one you actually gave. Like when you are teaching 3-handed casting and the dog goes back on an over cast, you give a "No, Here -Nick.". You nick on here there, not on over, making it indirect.

How badly have I misunderstood direct and indirect pressure???

Yes in a way but direct pressure would be more like if he would give the whistle and not sit and give him a nick. The next command followed with a nick would be indirect trying to get him to know what you eant
 

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I think you've got it right.

If you give a whistle and a burn at the same time, it is direct pressure for sit. If the dog took a straight left back instead of a left angle back and you blew the whistle and gave the dog a burn that would be direct pressure for sit and indirect pressure for the missed cast. Just like the example you gave with the pressure coming on the come in whistle instead of the missed cast.

I do want to caution on burning for missed casts though. If the dog knows the cast in several locations and circumstances, he saw the cast, and he doesn't do it; the collar correction is warranted. He didn't try to work with you. But, if the dog only has a vague idea of what casts are in one or two places and circumstances, then you probably shouldn't go to the collar but use attrition instead. You don't keep a dog's attitude up by burning him and he doesn't know why. Training is a balancing act with these guys.
 

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Thanks Howard. If I had that wrong I was going to have to rethink everything I am doing - not that I don't need to anyway.

I would also agree on the correction for the missed cast. I have adopted a policy of attrition on the first one and indirect pressure on the second. Luckily, I have very few seconds.

I can also tell that about 99% of his miscasts come from getting in too big a hurry, and I do not want to burn him for basically letting his desire get the best of him at not quite 13 months old. Lately I have been forced to tighten up a little at the line, while trying to remember that I don't want to sour his attitude.

One other thing - I'm not sure he wouldn't rather have a collar correction than a stern "no" at this point.

All in all, I'm starting to get a snappy, straight sit on the long pile in TT work, so I am pretty satisfied with our progress to this point.

I think you've got it right.

If you give a whistle and a burn at the same time, it is direct pressure for sit. If the dog took a straight left back instead of a left angle back and you blew the whistle and gave the dog a burn that would be direct pressure for sit and indirect pressure for the missed cast. Just like the example you gave with the pressure coming on the come in whistle instead of the missed cast.

I do want to caution on burning for missed casts though. If the dog knows the cast in several locations and circumstances, he saw the cast, and he doesn't do it; the collar correction is warranted. He didn't try to work with you. But, if the dog only has a vague idea of what casts are in one or two places and circumstances, then you probably shouldn't go to the collar but use attrition instead. You don't keep a dog's attitude up by burning him and he doesn't know why. Training is a balancing act with these guys.
 
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