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I have had my pup at the trainer for about 7 weeks and have been told that she is doing quite well. One thing I was curious about is that the trainer said she does not use an e-collar unless it's necessary for a hard dog. I don't have a problem with that and wouldn't have a problem if she did. I was just wondering if that is fairly unique these days?
 

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I have had my pup at the trainer for about 7 weeks and have been told that she is doing quite well. One thing I was curious about is that the trainer said she does not use an e-collar unless it's necessary for a hard dog. I don't have a problem with that and wouldn't have a problem if she did. I was just wondering if that is fairly unique these days?
Absolutly!!!!!!!!
 

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Is that a "good" Absolutely, or a "bad" Absolutely???
I would say it depends on the trainer.I don`t think there are many people that can train to a high level WITHOUT the use of a collar nowadays.A question I often ask myself is how many people would actually be training dogs if there was no collar.Jim
 

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Is that a "good" Absolutely, or a "bad" Absolutely???
I'm guessing its an answer to your question...

"I was just wondering if that is fairly unique these days?"

My answer to that question is absolutely.
 

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I would say it depends on the trainer.I don`t think there are many people that can train to a high level WITHOUT the use of a collar nowadays.A question I often ask myself is how many people would actually be training dogs if there was no collar.Jim
They would likely be shooting the dog with rat shot at close range and bird shot at longer range. Walking out to the dog that cheats the water and using a cattle prod. Because those new fangled electronic collars are extreme.

Read the book Training Retrievers to Handle by DL and Ann Walters
 

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It's a refreshing answer, absolutely unique. A dog can become fantastic in the field without the e-collar.
Sounds like you have a good trainer.
 

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Please don`t bring back those memories. Ha! I grew up on that somewhat .Point being how many today know how to use those tools.
 

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It's a refreshing answer, absolutely unique. A dog can become fantastic in the field without the e-collar.
Sounds like you have a good trainer.
What is fantastic? Can you name an FC or AFC that has titled in the last 10 years with out ever using an ecollar in training?

Doesn't mean you don't have a good trainer, but it also doesn't mean the dog can't be abused in training by someone that doesn't ever use an ecollar. The ecollar is a great tool and no more or less of a tool that can be use poorly than a lead and heeling stick.
 

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What is fantastic? Can you name an FC or AFC that has titled in the last 10 years with out ever using an ecollar in training?

Doesn't mean you don't have a good trainer, but it also doesn't mean the dog can't be abused in training by someone that doesn't ever use an ecollar. The ecollar is a great tool and no more or less of a tool that can be use poorly than a lead and heeling stick.
On another note read the book Chareles Morgan on retrievers.Jim
 

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Charles Morgan On Retrievers-edited by Ann Fowler & D>L. Walters.--An Abercrombie & Fitch Book copyright 1968,1971 & 1974
Library of Congress catalog card number 67-24866
 

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Please don`t bring back those memories. Ha! I grew up on that somewhat .Point being how many today know how to use those tools.
From everything I ever heard about your dad, he was a extremely good trainer who didnt have to resort to such brutal methods, and his results in being a National Finalist and titling many dogs prove that



I remember the days of training without the collar. Hiding in ambush while my girlfriend ran the dog, waiting for the dog to cheat so I could jump out and correct. Sprinting into the field to correct (running right at the dog-get down on their level and see what that looks like). Shooting the dog with bird shot. Using a sling shot. Whips, Prods, Shotguns, sling shots....I think I'll take the e-collar.
Though I do still use a sling shot as part of my forcing routine, for a very short time.
Walt
used to run ...now we walk, which serves two purposes...it gives the trainer time to "cool off and think about the situation" and it gives the dog time to think about what could happen "when your dad gets here" :razz::razz:

have used a whip/heeling stick, but can honestly say we have NEVER shot at a dog,NEVER used a slingshot, NEVER used a prod...have seen them used by people no longer with us in this world
 

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Thanks Bon,you are excactly correct,but as a youngster got to train (throw) with some of the most successfull pro`s at the time and saw firsthand alot of the methods at the time.
 

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I would think the success rate of your trainer would answere your question.


When you visit a training session with the pro and your dog,,How do other dogs they have perform?

What do references the Pro has, have to say about the dog the pro trained?

Does the Pro train primarily for HT or FT? Whats the success rate?

Methods speak for themselves directly by success,and levels of performance.

Other than good discussion,, Why ask that question here? The answere is right in front of your nose at the Pros kennel.

JMHDAO.

Gooser
 

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Yes, training without an E collar is possible but I would have the dog CC. I have a collar but rarely use it on him. My 2 1/2 yo, Tar, was trained without. I did use it to train on very long blinds either a buzz or a nick if I found he was giving me a little lack of effort or fooling around. To save time instead of walking out especially if I knew he knew what was expected of him (key principle of using the collar) I used IP and a firm "no" or "ah" and get results. I would also say my 2 1/2yo is an exception to the rule. Best bet CC and use the collar as little as possible. IMHO.
 

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I was an Amish trainer right up until I got my current lab, who turns 6 at the end of the month. I finally decided to open my mind and try to use what I'd learned to that point, combined with what I could learn new, using some modern e-collar training material. I personally used Mike Lardy's material as the primary source of instructional information for this.

I trained a few Amish dogs to "Master Level" accomplishments without resorting to shooting the dogs, cattle prodding the dogs, etc. I know that some of my buddies and peers that I trained with (some of who are still Amish to this day) will find it unfair to be painted with that broad of a brush. Just because someone chooses to train without an e-collar, does not automatically mean they will use some other specific pain inflicting tool for negative reinforcement.

While I agree with Bon on the idea of a Amish tennis shoe correction needing a trainer with a clear mind, I find that the idea of "walking" to the dog only exacerbates my primary criticism of tennis shoe Amish corrections. A tennis shoe Amish correction - meaning stopping the dog on a whistle or verbal and walking, running, swimming, waddling out to the dog to "have a talk" with him - is an application of indirect pressure. The problem is it is indirect pressure with poor timing. There is a significant lag between the behavior for which the dog is being corrected and the administration of that correction.

Amish corrected dogs will behave like they know they're in trouble. They will give body language that they know they did wrong. In my opinion, this is largely a conditioned response to the mere fact that their trainer is once again making the Amish march out to the dog. So the dog sees the trainer coming and is conditioned to what's coming next.

My primary reason that I'm glad I no longer train Amish is that I no longer impose this un-necessary mental pressure on the dog of the Amish Tennis Shoe correction. As an e-collar trainer, If I need to use indirect pressure, the timing is right there, immediately applied as needed, and then it is over and we are right back to working on whatever task we were doing. The correction becomes a minor bump in the road, rather than becoming the entire focus of the training session at that time.

Good luck and have fun! Chris
 

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That may be where we differ the most Chris, we WANT to put the mental pressure on the dog, we want a smart dog that can think their way out of a problem , not a tough dog that keeps taking a licking

And Yes I agree that many non collar trainers out there are not beating on their dogs , those that do don't last long and go thru dogs like toilet paper

One of the things that has made Clint a successful trainer of dogs at a young age is that he does accelerate their training and pushes mentally to see if they have the smarts to go on to AA stuff, He gets his answers sooner than most because he is asking the questions way before many would attempt to do so
 

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That may be where we differ the most Chris, we WANT to put the mental pressure on the dog, we want a smart dog that can think their way out of a problem , not a tough dog that keeps taking a licking

And Yes I agree that many non collar trainers out there are not beating on their dogs , those that do don't last long and go thru dogs like toilet paper

One of the things that has made Clint a successful trainer of dogs at a young age is that he does accelerate their training and pushes mentally to see if they have the smarts to go on to AA stuff, He gets his answers sooner than most because he is asking the questions way before many would attempt to do so
Bon, this statement peaks my interest, considering the really young dogs successfully running AA stakes these days. Can you list the dogs Clint has run in the last 10 years and their placements? I can find Hiwood Brigadier, who is 6.5 and no AA placements, a derby 4th. Mirk & Nola are both retired, I think? Mirk 0 points, Nola 1 Open point. Watermark's Sister Kate had a Qual 3rd and a Derby 4th. EE's lovely dysfunctional search feature doesn't let me see anymore than that, so I'm curious what's happening with non-ecollar dogs these days, in FT. I think your brother is the only one I hear mention of running FT with noncollar training, so can you fill in the blanks please?

BTW, don't care who trains with or without collar, how one accomplishes their goals is their business. But curious as to current dogs running FT that are totally non-ecollar trained, given that to many of us, AA stakes are the highest form of retriever training.
 
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