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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
LOVE the site upgrade, just saying



Now, can someone school me on why the general consensus views Euk(Puppy) as better than 4Health(Puppy)?

I ask b/c I hear great things about Euk and it's only a few bucks more per 35 lbs bag. Is it b/c 4health is just sort of new? Their Adult Food seems pretty weak but the puppy seems to be on point.

Anyway I've been feeding it to my pup since he was 7 weeks old. He hasn't grown a 3rd ear or anything and his weight & size have all been normal. Although he is a big pup.

However, I'm willing to switch if Euk is the better more proven puppy food but only if such evidence exist I guess.

Looking at the content of each it seems as if 4Health has better ingredients with no corn or corn meal.

4Health Puppy - 342 kcal/cup
Guaranteed Analysis:
Crude Protein 27.0% (min.), Crude Fat 15.0% (min.), Crude Fiber 3.0% (max.), Moisture 10.0% (max.), Calcium 1.2% (min.), Phosphorus 1.2% (max.), Phosphorus 1.0% (min.), Zinc 150 mg/kg (min.), Selenium 0.4 mg/kg (min.), Vitamin E 150 IU/kg (min.), L-Carnitine* 30 mg/kg (min.), Omega-6 Fatty Acids* 2.2% (min.), Omega-3 Fatty Acids* 0.3% (min.), DHA (Docosahexaenoic acid)* 0.05% (min.),
Euk LG Breed Puppy - 361.96 kcal/cup.
Guaranteed Analysis:
Crude Protein (min.) 26.00%, Crude Fat (min.) 14.00%, Crude Fiber (max.) 5.00%, Moisture (max.) 10.00%, Calcium (min.) 0.65%, Phosphorus (min.)n 0.53%, Vitamin E (min.) 140 IU/kg, Docosahexaenoic Acid (DHA) (min.) 0.10%*, Omega-6 Fatty Acids (min.) 2.00%*, Omega-3 Fatty Acids (min.) 0.40%*, Glucosamine (min.) 375 mg/kg*, Chondroitin Sulfate (min.) 35 mg/kg*
Is 19 calories that big a deal when those calories might not be coming from a better source?

Here's their two profile pages on the TSC website.
4Health Puppy
Euk Puppy

These two brands are affordable for me so no need to go off topic with more expensive brands please. Thank You





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If it aint broke dont fix it. If hes doing well, why switch/ That said... I feed Euk pup to all my puppies.
 

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It isn't just calories or pro/fat ratio. It's quality of ingredients, quality control, and so on. Look at the calcium/phos in the 4health vs Euk, that's an issue for large breed puppy growth & development (to some people, I'm not saying right or wrong, just that this is the reason for large breed formula). Large breed puppy food was developed to slow too rapid of growth in larger breed pups while still providing adequate nutrition. It's also the reason large breed puppy isn't suggested to be fed to pregnant/nursing dams. The calcium/phos ratio & levels are part of the science behind large breed puppy and the levels vary even from brand to brand, for that matter but are supposed to be lower than regular puppy. Some people just switch to adult food vs using large breed puppy, some use a high pro/fat food like PPP the entire life cycle. There are as many preferences as there are dogs and owners.
 

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The amount of recalls and HOW DIAMOND HANDLED (or didn't) the recalls. Every recall that they've had, they have stuck consumers and retailers with food. Its one thing to have problems, its totally another in how you deal with them. You'd think after so many recalls, they'd either fix the problems or get really, really good at handling recalls....
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
The calcium/phos ratio & levels are part of the science behind large breed puppy
Is there some write ups/articles on how much is enough when it comes to Pup Food? I do see how TSC is higher than EUK's. Just wondering why TSC chooses to do so or why EUK chooses that amount.

Thanks Kim ;)

The amount of recalls and HOW DIAMOND HANDLED (or didn't) the recalls. Every recall that they've had, they have stuck consumers and retailers with food. Its one thing to have problems, its totally another in how you deal with them. You'd think after so many recalls, they'd either fix the problems or get really, really good at handling recalls....
Yea my state wasn't affected last time, but I don't know about their reputation for recalls either so no clue on how they handle them.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 · (Edited)
Anything else, you can google and read for the rest of your life probably about what and how to feed a dog.
As we say down here, 'Ain't that the truth'.

Check out what I've found via the links you provided.

According to the Purina Link on puppy's; HERE
Avoid using calcium, phosphorus and vitamin D supplements in conjunction with nutritionally complete and balanced diets unless directed by a veterinarian;
They go on to say basically b/c it's useless, not b/c it's harmful.

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Now under the EUK "Feeding your large breed puppy" link HERE

They go on to say this about large breed puppy food.
The makeup of their(puppies) food should include 27 percent protein, 15 percent fat, 0.8 to 0.9 percent calcium and 0.7 percent phosphorus to ensure good health
Yet! EUK's own LG Breed Puppy food, as seen above in the first post, has LESS than they themselves recommend on Protein, Fat, Calicium and Phosphorus(all of the above). What the?!?


...AND Pro Plan has MORE protein and LESS fat than EUK recommends for Large Breed pups but has over 1% of Calcium as TSC Puppy, but a bit less phosphorus. However Pro Plan does have what EUK recommends(which they themselves don't have) of the recommnded amount of phosphorus at 0.8%.

again...huh???


TSC however has the exact amount that EUK recommends on Protein & Fat. However they don't give % of Calcium and Phosphorus so not sure what it's supposed to be with EUK and PPP conflicting.


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I'm not trying to over due anyone's brain here, just interesting reading over coffee on a Monday.

I am however wanting to do what's best for my (soon to be 6 month old) pup
so ALL advice is welcome please.

Thanks :)




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I'm sure that the manufacturers recommendations are based on the their own testings. I would find it very surprising if Purina adjusted any of their formulas based on research done by Euk and vice versa so comparing data from one to another is probably more confusing than anything. And it doesn't help that Euk's recommendations don't match whats in the bag (albeit 1% away).

I really don't think there is a "right" answer. Euk and Purina are both high quality foods and I would recommend them over any store brand.
 

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I'm not going to get into a debate about which food or type of food. Each company is going to use whatever their research supports their formulas. You asked why the differences, that's what you have to figure out and what is supported or what you believe. But read your links again. Purina does not say vitamin/mineral supplementing is useless rather than harmful across the board, rather, the article mentions two different tests after supplement trials, specific to growth and immune system. It further adds: "Maintaining Mineral Balance

One of the most common and potentially harmful forms of supplementation involves the minerals calcium and phosphorus. Too much or too little calcium in your puppy's diet may result in bone abnormalities. Too little calcium along with low levels of phosphorus and vitamin D may result in rickets, soft bones that bend out of shape under the animal's weight.

Some puppy owners provide excessive calcium in the diets of puppies, particularly large breeds, which may cause skeletal abnormalities. If your puppy is being fed a nutritionally complete and balanced puppy food, it will be getting all the calcium it needs.

Mineral nutrients are interrelated and cannot be considered as single elements. Calcium and phosphorus have a definite relationship in the formation of bones and teeth, provided a proper ratio is maintained. Too much or too little of either mineral is likely to interfere with the utilization of the other by the puppy.

The Role of Vitamin D

The absorption of calcium and phosphorus into the bones and teeth requires a sufficient amount of vitamin D in the diet. Vitamin D requirements of puppies are influenced by the levels of calcium and phosphorus in the diet. Excessive amounts of vitamin D may be toxic to a puppy."
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
I'm not going to get into a debate about which food or type of food. Each company is going to use whatever their research supports their formulas. You asked why the differences, that's what you have to figure out and what is supported or what you believe. But read your links again. Purina does not say vitamin/mineral supplementing is useless rather than harmful across the board, rather, the article mentions two different tests after supplement trials, specific to growth and immune system. It further adds: "Maintaining Mineral Balance

One of the most common and potentially harmful forms of supplementation involves the minerals calcium and phosphorus. Too much or too little calcium in your puppy's diet may result in bone abnormalities. Too little calcium along with low levels of phosphorus and vitamin D may result in rickets, soft bones that bend out of shape under the animal's weight.

Some puppy owners provide excessive calcium in the diets of puppies, particularly large breeds, which may cause skeletal abnormalities. If your puppy is being fed a nutritionally complete and balanced puppy food, it will be getting all the calcium it needs.

Mineral nutrients are interrelated and cannot be considered as single elements. Calcium and phosphorus have a definite relationship in the formation of bones and teeth, provided a proper ratio is maintained. Too much or too little of either mineral is likely to interfere with the utilization of the other by the puppy.

The Role of Vitamin D

The absorption of calcium and phosphorus into the bones and teeth requires a sufficient amount of vitamin D in the diet. Vitamin D requirements of puppies are influenced by the levels of calcium and phosphorus in the diet. Excessive amounts of vitamin D may be toxic to a puppy."

Yea I read that as well. Too bad they don't give what % of these two they recommend.

I also know PPP isn't going to base their's off of EUK's just interesting to see their differences in % recommended.

I might e-mail EUK to see what they say about why their recommendation doesn't match their own brand.
 

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How trustworthy do you guys find the Dog Food Advisor?
Dog Food Advisor is just one person (or a few people) who provide their own opinion, based on what they feel is important. As you have already seen just in this little thread, there are differences as to what people think and feel is important. So with that said, I would not put any faith behind anything from dog food advisor, but that is only because I have a different opinion on what is important.

Now back to your original question. I personally do not see anything wrong with TSC 4health. I think it has some good ingredients. I used to feed my pup the same formula, except it was labeled under the kirkland's brand. I fed it for almost 1 year, having made the switch from Pro Plan, based solely on cost difference (and knowing the ingredient list fell within what I thought was acceptable). After about a year of feeding it (with good results), my pup stopped eating it when I opened a new bag, so I switched back to ProPlan, and he started eating again. I feel that I just got a bad bag of Kirklands, but stayed with ProPlan because the worst thiing I feel you can do to your pup is keep changing foods. I am still on ProPlan. I like the results (same as with Kirklands). He likes it. All is good.

ProPlan and Euk are good foods, but I think 4Health is good too.

If I had to choose at this particular time, I would not go with 4Health because of the recalls. The recalls actually affected humans instead of pets this time, but the fact that they have had two pretty damaging recalls within the past 4 years, makes me a little worried. Any company can have a recall, however, since Diamond is the current hot topic of recalls, I personally will stay away from them for a while.....

the most important thing to remember: How does YOUR pup do on the food, and are you happy with the results? No one else can tell you that based on their experience.
 

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How trustworthy do you guys find the Dog Food Advisor?
About as trustworthy as the posts here at the RTF.

Almost always, on any subject, just someone's opinion.

About all you can rely on, is that someone else will have a different opinion.
 

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You have a known proven product in Eukanuba Large Breed Puppy vs. a product with unknown results. For years I have seen the positive results of feeding Eukanuba Puppy, why not stick with what we have seen work?
 
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