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What would you do in this training situation?

Poison bird thrown into the wind. Dog is cued off the bird and understands he is supposed to run the blind first. He knows how to run this test.
Blind is at exactly 300 yards. Poison bird is at 150.
Dog gets to the scent cone of the poison bird and turns toward the bird.

Do you:
1. Blow the sit whistle, correct, and cast?
2. Blow the sit whistle, no correction, and cast?
3. As soon as you see the dog turning into the scent do you, "Back, burn, back."
4. Something else.

A few members of our training group say to let the dog honor its nose while some profess that, "When I say back you run a straight line until I tell you otherwise."
 

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A training question!!!

I would --Blow the sit whistle, no correction, and cast. I'll give the dog a chance to learn before I correct.
 

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2. I'd give the dog at least one chance to cast. I guess everyone trains differently, but I have to think you would create all kinds of issues by burning a dog for only acknowledging a bird it's going to have to pick up anyway.

Yup, I can't imagine correcting a dog for turning it's head. I would give time to see if the dog would drive through. If it broke down I'd sit and cast with a big verbal back. I would hesitate to use the collar there as I have a dog that is hard to keep tight to guns on blinds because of dumb corrections I put on him around the guns when he was a pup. Dogs have to be comfortable around gunners. (warning, nub opinion)
 

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I teach that concept like all other standard diversion mark concetps; step by step. Far better results with more dogs than teaching with pressure. Four Phase Drill is an ideal environment for teaching these concepts.



Each of the four concepts is taught FIRST in the standard, pick up the mark - then the blind manner well before any poison bird blind work. Each is run at 20, then 40, then 60, then 80 yards; establishing competence a little at a time.

Questions?

Evan
 

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A lot would depend on the severity of the turn. Is it a 90 degree turn towards the bird or is slight fade towards the bird. I may correct more for one vs the other. But regardless, the dogs going to get a chance to do the right thing after I stop him to handle before I start to apply pressure. Buzz brings up a great point about correcting around guns as you can create other issues by doing this (just like around water). I'd like to see the dog "think" when in this situation so I have to give him the opportunity to do that.
 

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I would give the dog a chance too. No need to burn the dog for honoring its nose. If he went for the poison bird I would whistle sit cast back and if he did not honor the cast then its a correction and cast again. Dog needs to take the cast away from the suction.
 

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IMO, I don't want to correct a dog (beyond blowing the whistle) when a dog honors his nose. I want a dog to honor his nose, especially at distance. And your example is an extreme edge example of a poison bird set-up that is fair, IMO. Beyond 150yd, I don't think a poison bird, up-wind of the line, is a fair test. Remember the rules say a dog that honors his nose is a good dog, so why not train & test with that in mind.

In training I might give the dog a whistle stop when he honors his nose by turning toward the posion bird, then a back command & if the dog doesn't take the cast & continues toward the poison bird, then a sit-nick-sit, then cast again. If the dog picks up the poison bird, I would blow a sit whistle & walk out to the dog, take the bird & cast the dog past the posion bird & on to the blind. But in training situations I want the dog closer than 150 yds, maybe half that distance.

And by way of commentary, I think judges that resort to very difficult poison bird set-ups are admitting that they didn't have enough of a marking test & have need to eliminate dogs. A lot of weekend trials go that way - not enough answers on the marks, so the judges have to set-up very difficult blinds to eliminate dogs. In doing so the stylish marking dogs are generally hurt the most, eliminating stylish dogs in favor of the more methodical, slower dog on the blinds that may not have marked as well & who give the handler much more time to keep them going past the poision bird. IMO blinds should demonstrate reasonable control & handling ability. Once that is demonstrated, as a judge I want the very best marking dogs to be rewarded for their marking ability.

More importantly, the real training takes place at the line by how you cue the dog about the poison bird. All the more reason to make the training set-up much shorter so that the dog is more assured of remembering the cue (in my case, "no bird", re-position the dog & cue "dead") & the dog is not asked to cast several times prior to getting to the poison bird in a shorter training set-up. JMO.....
 

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I agree, there should have been drills long before you do set-up training. The OP's example is a late transition/advanced set-up. It should have been preceded by controlled drills like Evan's 4-phase drill (which also has prerequisites).
 

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IMO, I don't want to correct a dog (beyond blowing the whistle) when a dog honors his nose. I want a dog to honor his nose, especially at distance. And your example is an extreme edge example of a poison bird set-up that is fair, IMO. Beyond 150yd, I don't think a poison bird, up-wind of the line, is a fair test. Remember the rules say a dog that honors his nose is a good dog, so why not train & test with that in mind.

In training I might give the dog a whistle stop when he honors his nose by turning toward the posion bird, then a back command & if the dog doesn't take the cast & continues toward the poison bird, then a sit-nick-sit, then cast again. If the dog picks up the poison bird, I would blow a sit whistle & walk out to the dog, take the bird & cast the dog past the posion bird & on to the blind. But in training situations I want the dog closer than 150 yds, maybe half that distance.



More importantly, the real training takes place at the line by how you cue the dog about the poison bird. All the more reason to make the training set-up much shorter so that the dog is more assured of remembering the cue (in my case, "no bird", re-position the dog & cue "dead") & the dog is not asked to cast several times prior to getting to the poison bird in a shorter training set-up. JMO.....

Agreed. These area animals with there strongest sense being scent, and you are going to be asking that scent to bail you out from time to time.
 

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You have a fundamental problem, which is usually the case. Is your dog really competent in its fundamentals? Do you see the opportunities of sharpening those skills by taking him back through the building of these skills – one step at a time?

Each time you progress, either in distance or to a more advanced concept, you will have chances to stop, cast, and even correct. Each time you do, especially in an environment where the dog knows the rules, you strengthen each fundamental handling skill. If these are not sharp at that level, how can they be strong at 150 – 300 yards?

Having spent a couple weeks at this, the better course would be to take it to the field in cold applications. However, do so incrementally; extending distances a little at a time. Advancing distance will tend to erode control, so only run blind/mark combinations about 25-30 yards further in each succeeding set up – keeping the fundamentals intact as you go.

E-collars are great for supporting standards that are already well established. They are not a path of choice for building or teaching. Before you consider corrections, make sure your fundamentals are adequately taught.

Clearer?

Evan
 

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IMO, I don't want to correct a dog (beyond blowing the whistle) when a dog honors his nose. I want a dog to honor his nose, especially at distance. And your example is an extreme edge example of a poison bird set-up that is fair, IMO. Beyond 150yd, I don't think a poison bird, up-wind of the line, is a fair test. Remember the rules say a dog that honors his nose is a good dog, so why not train & test with that in mind.

In training I might give the dog a whistle stop when he honors his nose by turning toward the posion bird, then a back command & if the dog doesn't take the cast & continues toward the poison bird, then a sit-nick-sit, then cast again. If the dog picks up the poison bird, I would blow a sit whistle & walk out to the dog, take the bird & cast the dog past the posion bird & on to the blind. But in training situations I want the dog closer than 150 yds, maybe half that distance.

And by way of commentary, I think judges that resort to very difficult poison bird set-ups are admitting that they didn't have enough of a marking test & have need to eliminate dogs. A lot of weekend trials go that way - not enough answers on the marks, so the judges have to set-up very difficult blinds to eliminate dogs. In doing so the stylish marking dogs are generally hurt the most, eliminating stylish dogs in favor of the more methodical, slower dog on the blinds that may not have marked as well & who give the handler much more time to keep them going past the poision bird. IMO blinds should demonstrate reasonable control & handling ability. Once that is demonstrated, as a judge I want the very best marking dogs to be rewarded for their marking ability.

More importantly, the real training takes place at the line by how you cue the dog about the poison bird. All the more reason to make the training set-up much shorter so that the dog is more assured of remembering the cue (in my case, "no bird", re-position the dog & cue "dead") & the dog is not asked to cast several times prior to getting to the poison bird in a shorter training set-up. JMO.....
Great post!
 

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Same here. The OP to me was asking what other people do because he has people in the training group telling him differently, a very common problem. Some people use the collar too much and they they can be a little too vocal or overbearing in the group. The Op was not saying he could not do the PB blind because he lacked fundamentals, he was clarifying whether the dog should be allowed to honor his nose and cast out of the PB or do a back burn back, or an immediate burn. I go along with stop and cast him out of there and give him a chance to make the correct decision.
 

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WWGD

What would Granddady do...

for this... after the fact???

In training I might give the dog a whistle stop when he honors his nose by turning toward the posion bird, then a back command & if the dog doesn't take the cast & continues toward the poison bird, then a sit-nick-sit, then cast again. If the dog picks up the poison bird, I would blow a sit whistle & walk out to the dog, take the bird & cast the dog past the posion bird & on to the blind. But in training situations I want the dog closer than 150 yds, maybe half that distance.

Re-visit four phase... Repeat the 150/300 yrd Poison Bird?

JW - Newb
 

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Because the dog, while being required to perform an advanced skill set, will be successful through strong fundamental skills (and didn't, according to the description), I think fundamentals are a logical link. Go as sent is fundamental, and is the task being tested to a higher standard by the presence of the poison bird as a suction element. It's already been stated that he did not go as sent due to the PB. The question, as I read it, was what to do next.
What would you do in this training situation?

Dog gets to the scent cone of the poison bird and turns toward the bird.

Do you:
1. .....
"Sit" is often the first problem from there. If that is intact, it's taking the cast as given; again 'go as sent'. With questions centered on whether or not to correct, or to consider some other approach, I question that even if the dog "knows how to run this test" does he know it well enough? In other words, is he really solid fundamentally? Is his failure here a single occurrance, or a habit? Would it be less apt to happen in the first place if he were better educated? Fundamentals.

Evan
 

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IMHO an under the arc poison bird blind is all about the cast through. On a true blind it will be the odd dog that lines through on their own and the even odder handler than would risk not stopping and casting.
The dog needs to given the chance to exhibit the knowledge of the fundamentals of casting through scent, casting through a mark and casting towards a gun that were hopefully taught individually and at shorted distances. Correction is therefore only when you can honestly say that the dog has the correct foundation but is disobeying.
Very little teaching/training of complicated concepts is accomplished at 150yds.

JMO

Tim
 
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