Define "very close" to the backside of the flier
Up for discussion
Triple with out of order flyer. Dog has retrieved go bird, goes for standout flyer, never gets to area of fall for the flyer but hunts very close to back side of flyer about 2 small loops then takes off for short retired on backside of flyer and retrieves it. Short retired is well separated from flyer. How is this hunt judged?
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Within 10-15 yards of gunners.Define "very close" to the backside of the flier
A switch is defined as hunting for one bird, leaving, and going for another. Hunting within 10-15 yards of a gun is hunting that bird, side of the gun is irrelevant, the dog switched and is eliminated by rule.
Thank you Dr. Ed for your interpretation of that imagined senario. I'm trying to involve conversation and interpretation of retriever work in the field that happens in training and at trials. This part of the forum which used to be very active has mostly gone away and we've lost a lot of knowledgeable people because of that shift.A switch is defined as hunting for one bird, leaving, and going for another. Hunting within 10-15 yards of a gun is hunting that bird, side of the gun is irrelevant, the dog switched and is eliminated by rule.
Back to my senario, for further discussion, the short retired is approx 200 yards and flyer is approx 300 yards and separated in width by 50 yards. So clearly differently fall areas. Not mom and pops or 2 guns approx same depth separated by 20-30 yards thrown in a flowerpot configuration. Wind is not an issue as no wind to slightly downwind. Any thoughts as to if this is a no man's land hunt? I tend to agree with EdA that if you hunt within 15 yards of a standout gun you have committed to hunting that gun station. Other conflicting views?
100%A switch is defined as hunting for one bird, leaving, and going for another. Hunting within 10-15 yards of a gun is hunting that bird, side of the gun is irrelevant, the dog switched and is eliminated by rule.
In that scenario, for me, it sounds like the dog was not committed to either fall. My interpretation would start with a poor mark. Once the dog finds whichever bird it will tell you which one it was hunting when it is sent for the next bird. More than likely if it thought it was hunting the bird it eventually gets it will proceed directly to the AOF of the bird it has not retrieved. If it thinks it got that bird it will leave headed for the bird it just retrieved, an old fall.Thank you Dr. Ed for your interpretation of that imagined senario. I'm trying to involve conversation and interpretation of retriever work in the field that happens in training and at trials. This part of the forum which used to be very active has mostly gone away and we've lost a lot of knowledgeable people because of that shift.
Back to my senario, for further discussion, the short retired is approx 200 yards and flyer is approx 300 yards and separated in width by 50 yards. So clearly differently fall areas. Not mom and pops or 2 guns approx same depth separated by 20-30 yards thrown in a flowerpot configuration. Wind is not an issue as no wind to slightly downwind. Any thoughts as to if this is a no man's land hunt? I tend to agree with EdA that if you hunt within 15 yards of a standout gun you have committed to hunting that gun station. Other conflicting views?
If the dog proceeded towards the flyer gun and established a hunt 10-15 yards on back side of standout gun, then left and ran 50 yards straight towards retired gun and picked up that mark, I would call that a switch. Once dog has established a hunt near a gun station, the dog is committed to retrieving that bird.In that scenario, for me, it sounds like the dog was not committed to either fall. My interpretation would start with a poor mark. Once the dog finds whichever bird it will tell you which one it was hunting when it is sent for the next bird. More than likely if it thought it was hunting the bird it eventually gets it will proceed directly to the AOF of the bird it has not retrieved. If it thinks it got that bird it will leave headed for the bird it just retrieved, an old fall.
Me tooIf the dog proceeded towards the flyer gun and established a hunt 10-15 yards on back side of standout gun, then left and ran 50 yards straight towards retired gun and picked up that mark, I would call that a switch. Once dog has established a hunt near a gun station, the dog is committed to retrieving that bird.
I would have to see the "two small loops" to make more of an educated guess as to whether or not it was an actual hunt. Especially since things are subjective to each individual judge. What I see and what you see can mean two entirely different things.Thank you Dr. Ed for your interpretation of that imagined senario. I'm trying to involve conversation and interpretation of retriever work in the field that happens in training and at trials. This part of the forum which used to be very active has mostly gone away and we've lost a lot of knowledgeable people because of that shift.
Back to my senario, for further discussion, the short retired is approx 200 yards and flyer is approx 300 yards and separated in width by 50 yards. So clearly differently fall areas. Not mom and pops or 2 guns approx same depth separated by 20-30 yards thrown in a flowerpot configuration. Wind is not an issue as no wind to slightly downwind. Any thoughts as to if this is a no man's land hunt? I tend to agree with EdA that if you hunt within 15 yards of a standout gun you have committed to hunting that gun station. Other conflicting views?
If the dog cruises past the flier guns, no big deal. I can't imagine how 2 loops within 10-15 yards of the flier guns wouldn't be a hunt.
I am assuming that in your scenario, the short retired is thrown toward the flyer gunners.If the dog proceeded towards the flyer gun and established a hunt 10-15 yards on back side of standout gun, then left and ran 50 yards straight towards retired gun and picked up that mark, I would call that a switch. Once dog has established a hunt near a gun station, the dog is committed to retrieving that bird.
When sent for the second mark (it doesn't matter which mark I, as a judge, think the handler sent the dog for), the dog ended up hunting 50 yards from the retired mark which put him close to but behind the flyer gunners ... so he was 50 yards from the bird he eventually picked up second. While it's not said in your hypothetical, can we assume that the flyer gunners knocked down their bird somewhere between 40 - 50 yards away ... for simplicity, let's assume it fell 45 yards from the flyer gunners. If that's the case, the dog was never more than 50 yards from the retired mark and never less than 55 yards from the flyer when making the second retrieve. I'll readily call it a poor mark, but I'm not ready to call it a switch. The mark is the mark, the gunners are not the mark.
I have seen pheasants land 40-45 yards from the gunners but very rarely a duck. If you read the rule book each mark has a different area to hunt. Go bird, smallest, and each additional bird somewhat larger. In the scenario described the retired bird was thrown angle back and flyer shot angle back. To me if you make 2 loops on the backside of a standout gun and the loops are 10 yards away from the guns, the dog has committed to hunting that gun.I am assuming that in your scenario, the short retired is thrown toward the flyer gunners.
When sent for the second mark (it doesn't matter which mark I, as a judge, think the handler sent the dog for), the dog ended up hunting 50 yards from the retired mark which put him close to but behind the flyer gunners ... so he was 50 yards from the bird he eventually picked up second. While it's not said in your hypothetical, can we assume that the flyer gunners knocked down their bird somewhere between 40 - 50 yards away ... for simplicity, let's assume it fell 45 yards from the flyer gunners. If that's the case, the dog was never more than 50 yards from the retired mark and never less than 55 yards from the flyer when making the second retrieve. I'll readily call it a poor mark, but I'm not ready to call it a switch. The mark is the mark, the gunners are not the mark.
A dog making loops 10-15 yards from a standout gun is absolutely a hunt
It was a hunt ... but I contend that it was not necessarily a hunt of the flyer, which would be required for it to be a switch.
The dog stayed behind the flyer gunners.
As I read the scenario, I cannot determine that the dog was ever closer to the flyer than he was to the second bird it retrieved.
The issue is whether the dog was hunting the flyer, not whether he was hunting the flyer gunners.
The dog stayed behind the flyer gunners.
As I read the scenario, I cannot determine that the dog was ever closer to the flyer than he was to the second bird it retrieved.
The issue is whether the dog was hunting the flyer, not whether he was hunting the flyer gunners.
Oh the joys of judging! So you and your cojudge disagree, he thinks the dog switched you think it had a poor mark. What is your argument to convince him/her and how would you resolve the issue?It was a hunt ... but I contend that it was not necessarily a hunt of the flyer, which would be required for it to be a switch.
The dog stayed behind the flyer gunners.
As I read the scenario, I cannot determine that the dog was ever closer to the flyer than he was to the second bird it retrieved.
The issue is whether the dog was hunting the flyer, not whether he was hunting the flyer gunners.
LOL!!!Oh the joys of judging! ... What is your argument to convince him/her and how would you resolve the issue?
Ain't that the truth!
And I believe your question is a topic worthy of discussion ... like many relationships, frank discussion, good faith negotiation, and possibly compromise are critical elements to make a successful and hopefully enjoyable judging assignment.
I submit that in the absence of a consensus with your cojudge and depending on how the dog performed on the other marks the error would have been so egregious as to cause elimination from the stake without ever having solved the divide between you and your cojudge. The only difference being a switch is mandatory elimination while a horrible mark is subject to negotiation. I am quite sure that you and I, you and Brooks, and Brooks and I would resolve things quickly and move on.
Of that, I have no doubt!I submit that in the absence of a consensus with your cojudge and depending on how the dog performed on the other marks the error would have been so egregious as to cause elimination from the stake without ever having solved the divide between you and your cojudge. The only difference being a switch is mandatory elimination while a horrible mark is subject to negotiation. I am quite sure that you and I, you and Brooks, and Brooks and I would resolve things quickly and move on.
The dog made a commitment and hunted a non-existent mark, then abandoned its stupid hunt to hunt another bird. Switch or terrible mark, it is gone.Oh the joys of judging! So you and your cojudge disagree, he thinks the dog switched you think it had a poor mark. What is your argument to convince him/her and how would you resolve the issue?
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