[Stephen Whitley]

My dog's response is very snappy. Today I worked him from my side and the bumper was about 4 feet away. The only problem I am having, and it is not everytime, is that sometimes he drops the dummy between the time he picks it up and when he gets back to me. Like I said it's not everytime, but it happens enough that I don't like it. To describe it, it looks like he is holding it very lightly and he allows it to roll out. Is it okay at this point to take it from him before he sits? It happens more when he is lowering his butt to sit down. If I take it before I give him a sit command it is much better. Thanks!
Stephen

 

[Trevor Toberny]

He shouldnt drop it and if he does you grab the ear and apply pressure and force him to it.If he is not consistantly doing it then take a step back for a few days.Are you telling him hold once he has it in his mouth?

 

[hhlabradors]

Assuming you have taught hold to the point where he can hold through distractions, obedience drills, you tapping or reaching for the bumper, etc. let him make the mistake and then get on his ear. "Fetch" is composed of a series of parts, one of which is to hold firmly but gently until given a release command.

As yourself if you want to be dropped from hunt tests or be wading out into a pond to retrieve a duck he chose not to hold, and then adjust your standards accordingly. It's much easier to teach it right the first time than to have to go back and re-teach it in order to patch performance holes. :wink:

 

[Stephen Whitley]

That's what I did. I am telling him hold once he has it. I had him at heel while he was sitting. Would it be better for him if I did this while he was walking at heel and then have him to keep walking a step or two after he picked up the dummy and then had him to sit?

 

[hhlabradors]

That's what I did. I am telling him hold once he has it. I had him at heel while he was sitting. Would it be better for him if I did this while he was walking at heel and then have him to keep walking a step or two after he picked up the dummy and then had him to sit?

I guess it depends on how you teach the trained retrieve. I teach "hold" first, so by the time we've gotten to fetching off the ground, I have transferred responsibility for "hold" to the dog - he knows it's part of the package, and it's part of the package whether he returns to sit at heel, we heel off together, or whatever. He is not to release, even if I take the bumper in my hand, until I say, "out." In my approach, correcting for the mistake of dropping prematurely is fair and helps him to make the decision to stop dropping prematurely. :wink:

If you feel you've not done enough work on hold to fairly make the dog responsible for it yet, then of course, you have to continue the teaching phase.

I will say that the longer you coax and cue and coddle, the more you "let by", the longer drawn out the process will be and the more they're going to try to stretch the performance standard to the lazy end of the continuum.

 

[Trevor Toberny]

yes walking fetch. I may be wrong but to me he doesnt truly know what fetch means.he has an idea but the light hasnt come on yet :idea:

 

[DL]

That's what I did. I am telling him hold once he has it. I had him at heel while he was sitting. Would it be better for him if I did this while he was walking at heel and then have him to keep walking a step or two after he picked up the dummy and then had him to sit?

The second sentence is what walking fetch is. I don't believe you have to necessarily make them sit to take the bumper with that at least in the beginning.

If you don't have him walking you are basically doing force to pile. Do you have a program you're following, or going by memory or something?

 

[Stephen Whitley]

I am going by memory/Lardy. We had a little trouble with hold. Maybe I'll go back and redo a little of the work on that. He knows what fetch means. He goes to the bumper with a purpose.

 

[Zoe's next]

We had a little trouble with hold. Maybe I'll go back and redo a little of the work on that.

Certainly not an expert, but that sounds like the problem/solution. I've learned (the hard way) that you cannot pass over something that you have a "little trouble" with without it popping up as a problem later on. Get his hold cleaned up, then go back and finish FF, which sounds like it's going better. Once you're sure he knows hold, any drop must put you right on his ear. He needs to test you in FF and you need to win (every time).

 

[Howard N]

Is it okay at this point to take it from him before he sits?

This is force fetch not try to survive the junior hunt test. He drops it, you be pinching that ear in a heart beat telling him to fetch!!!

 

[Stephen Whitley]

I hear you loud and clear! I DID get on his ear when he dropped the dummy! I could see a routine starting to form though so I started taking the dummy sooner so he wouldn't drop it...which I guess was wrong of me and I should've let him drop it so I get on his ear some more!

 

[DL]

I hear you loud and clear! I DID get on his ear when he dropped the dummy! I could see a routine starting to form though so I started taking the dummy sooner so he wouldn't drop it...which I guess was wrong of me and I should've let him drop it so I get on his ear some more!

You can do stuff with hold, by saying hold and tapping the bumper, or maybe tapping it out, then pinching. When you say hold, they should be trying not to drop it. It has to be taught somehow.

Sometimes they've got a bad hold on it, and you say hold and you know they are doing the best they can not to drop it. I do try take it a little faster to reward the effort on that, but the way I figure it, that is a judgement call. Sometimes, you might want to repostition it in the dogs mouth instead but that is up the trainer.

It sorta of like if on a retrieve the dog has the bumper by the string and you're telling them to 'hold' or would you say 'fetch'. You have to figure out your standard. You might have a dog doing everything it can not to drop the string. Some people might knock it out, then say fetch. You have to descide what you think works best for your dog.

 

[Stephen Whitley]

I was reading Lardy's article on FF again this morning and one thing jumped out at me that I mentioned earlier. He says that as soon as he gets the dog picking up the bumper off the ground he goes right into heeling the dog a step or two forward and then taking the dummy...not walking fetch, that's next. I guess I am guilty of asking questions on here when I see something in my dog that makes me think I need to do something to PREVENT a POTENTIAL problem from becoming a habit. I know this dog knows what fetch means. He attacks the bumper to avoid the pinch. When he does drop it, I get on his ear. The next time he holds it and doesn't want me to take it. The problem, or POTENTIAL problem, is that every now and then...maybe 3-4 times after the dropped dummy, he'll hold it loosely or drop it again. The times when he drops it a few times close together and I get on his ear, I can see that he is a little hesitant about even getting near me the next few times...another POTENTIAL problem. And, who can blame him with the pinching that's going on?! SO, I thought that maybe walking him forward a couple of feet after he picks up the dummy may help him and us avoid some problems. Thanks!

All comments are welcomed!

 

[DL]

I believe it says something like to do some fetches in one spot, and then to move forward and do some fetches in another spot. I am pretty sure it does not say to take the dog out of a sitting postion to take the bumper. Moving them around inbetween fetches helps to loosen them and not be so tense from what I understand.

The Lardy article is very sparce on force fetch, especially the hold part. The hold part is basically now existant. I have found extra material on occasion that goes well with the articles in RetrieversONLINE.

It is pretty dangerous to give someone advise on the internet and there is no way of knowing what is going on. I'm just rambling.

I do think the article says to go to walking fetch after the dog is picking up off the ground. Whether or not this dog or that dog can do that I wouldn't know. One thing that I know from training my dogs, and watching others is that I am very repetitious about saying 'hold' and 'give' and that sort of thing. I put a lot of effort into teaching the command 'give'. My present pupil is a soft motor mouth by nature but she has learned what it means. I use 'give' on things like bird in mouth marks, and such. I actually use it for every delivery. A lot of folks just take the object and don't say anything unless there is a problem. I say 'give' and the dog drops the object. Part of that could be a benefit of the way I force fetch, but I don't have that thing where they won't let go of the object.

Who knows what you will end up with, and we all learn by mistakes. If you aren't making mistakes you aren't learning. I'm not making mistakes fast enough, but I do err on the side of caution.

 

[Stephen Whitley]

I'm not talking about taking him out of the sitting position to take the bumper. I mean taking the bumper BEFORE he is sitting. What I read was on page 50 a couple of paragraphs above the walking fetch section.

 

[Gerard Rozas]

Downeast,
you are building a house one brick at a time. Each level will indicate if the bricks below are solid.

Is hold solid? I normally don't beat hold into the ground, because FF, if done properly will clean it up.

In this case - just from what you have written - I don't think you are done with FF. This dog may fetch - but he doesn't sound Forced to me.

Remember - Force is the most important word in Force Fetch.

If I were you, I would find someone (who has done a few) to check your work.

Analogy here - How would you hold on to a lifejacket in a raging storm at sea?

The dog should view the bumper, dowel the same way.

 

[Stephen Whitley]

I like your analogy! I did hold like you described. I didn't beat it into the ground. When I could run him around the yard jumping ditches and go through obedience sessions with him while he held a bumper then I moved on. Sure, he messed up a little. You don't think he is forced? That's fine, but PLEASE tell me what it is I am missing about force. I have taken this dog and pinched his ear and held his collar while holding him back from the dummy several times...I mean he is trying is hardest to get to the dummy while I am providing resistance. I say he knows what "fetch" means because of the way he goes after the dummy. When I really give a good hard pinch and then tell him "drop" he clamps down harder on the dummy. How much pinching/forcing do I need here? Don't get me wrong, I am in NO way doubting what you are saying. I know it is hard to give advice when you can't see the dog. But, in my mind, when this dog is lunging hard for the bumper time after time I would consider him forced...or atleast well on his way to being forced, and when he held on to that "life jacket" for dear life he would be 100% forced!

 

[Trevor Toberny]

Then why are you posting for advice if YOU think he is Forced.Everyone on here is tellling you he is not if he is dropping it and you seem to rebutt everything we ave all said.You have to be open to constuctive criticism to post on this board.But not trying to be an ass but again if you think he is forced then why are you asking?

 

[Stephen Whitley]

Wait a minute!!:lol: I said in MY mind I would say he is forced. A lot of people say they don't think he is! And that is fine!! You guys are the experts!! And that's why I am asking!! I am asking because I want to know what forced is if this one isn't, that's all!! You pretty much answered my last post when you just said that if he is dropping it then he isn't forced...the fact that he is lunging hard for the bumper doesn't mean he is forced.

 

[Trevor Toberny]

what are you plans for the dog?HT,FT or hunting?If it is just a hunting dog then why worry what we say.You are the one that will be hunting the dog and you need the dog to what works for you and what you are satisfied with and if you think her FF is good then that is all that matters.