[Ken Archer]

Following the link in the "Freezing of Canine Eggs and Ovaries" I found a couple more articles on "Lyme Disease, Pregnancy and Monthly Heartworm" http://showdogsupersite.com/kenlclub/breedvet/herx.html and "Pre-Breeding Exam For The Bitch" http://showdogsupersite.com/kenlclub/breedvet/vpbxm1.html

I've been lead to believe that it is ok to give monthly heart worm medication to pregnant bitches, but the first article I cited is emphatic in stating, "The rule for breeding animals, dogs or bitches is no monthly heart worm medication." What gives?

In the second article it states, "I feel, and this is an opinion I have discussed with several endocrinologists, that we should try to have bitches in the upper third of the normal range to assure that thyroid is not a limiting factor for pregnancy. Almost every bitch of 5 years or more will have a relatively low thyroid, when compared to her thyroid (T4) at a younger age. This a normal sign of aging. As human women should reproduce before 40, bitches should reproduce before 5." If that is true, we would not see many FC-AFC bitches having puppies. How much of this is practical and how much is theory?

 

[NateB]

Did not read the articles as I do not have the time, but most specialists I know do not recommend stopping heartworm preventative for breeding. That sounds like a risky proposition. Is this person going to pay for your dog's treatment if she gets heartworms, based on their bad advice. I have never had a problem and have never stopped giving heartworm to my bitches. As far as the thyroid, you have to look at more than the T4 value, there are about 8 "numbers" for thyroid to look at. My feeling is if a dog cannot concieve because of their thyroid then nature is telling us not to breed this dog. Last thing we need is for a tendency for thyroid disease in our dogs.

 

[hhlabradors]

I am not a vet, nor do I play one on TV, but I know in human medicine, there is a tendency for some specialists to literally be unable to see the forrest for the trees. It gets you into situations where the operation is a success, but the patient dies.

I think one place there is most opportunity for this kind of thing to arise with dogs in is reproduction. In the quest for the highest possible conception rate, the most possible live whelps, the most surviving neonates, other considerations pertaining to what's best for the individual dog and the breed can be overlooked. And as Dr. Nate mentioned, (as in with human repro specialists) whether that particular individual really OUGHT to reproduce can be overlooked too.

Sometimes just because we can do it doesn't mean we should.

 

[SueLab]

This article is from the show dog community. I have friends who participate in conformation with a different breed. They are successful and well read regarding breeding and issues.

They do not discontinue heartworm treatment when breeding as this article recommends. (In this part of the country, discontinuing heartworm meds would be risky and foolish...just an opinion from someone who moved a dog to the south years ago without HW protection and had to treat that dog after 2 months exposure.)

A side effect is that they also do not worm pups since the heartworm meds in the female control any worms in the pups. I have had stools checked on 2 healthy and normal litters and both were negative for intestinal worms.

 

[Ken Archer]

And as Dr. Nate mentioned, (as in with human repro specialists) whether that particular individual really OUGHT to reproduce can be overlooked too.

Sometimes just because we can do it doesn't mean we should.

Your comments bring back memories of a time when I was a PR manager for a cattle breed association and had a visiting veterinarian from Argentina that accompanied me on my travels for two weeks. He made a statement I will never forget. "Fertility isn't heritable, but infertility is." He explained by saying all normal animals are meant to be fertile, but those that are infertile are the result of inheriting traits that cause infertility.

 

[EdA]

risky and foolish...jmo) .

not just your opinion, but the opinion of many including me

 

[Guest]

We do heartworm monthly, but isn't the effective period actually 2-3 months or something?

Our therio vet recommended no HW and FL during pregnancy and nursing...

-K

 

[EdA]

from Plumb's Veterinary Drug Handbook

Milbemycin oxime (Interceptor)

"REPRODUCTIVE/NURSING SAFETY - Studies in pregnant dogs at daily doses 3X those labeled showed no adverse effects to offspring or bitch. Milbemycin does not enter maternal milk; at standard doses, no adverse effects have been noted in nursing puppies."

"PHARMACOKINETICES - At labeled doses, milbemycin is considered effective for at least 45 days after infection by D. Immitis larva."

Interceptor has been tested for adverse reproductive effects in 75 breeds.

I too discourage the use of topical paraciticides during pregnancy.

 

[SueLab]

It might be that the DVM who wrote the article, whose repo clinic is in Conn., just didn't consider her reading audience and the heartworm risk in the southern part of the country.

 

[Ken Archer]

Ed,

Would your advice be the same for those people giving the injectable ivermectin orally? Since the dosage is several times that of HeartGuard I was wondering if it was ok for pregnant bitches.

 

[EdA]

Ed,

Would your advice be the same for those people giving the injectable ivermectin orally? Since the dosage is several times that of HeartGuard I was wondering if it was ok for pregnant bitches.

That is off label use, as a licensed veterinarian I would never publicly sanction off label use of any product. Off label use of any drug affords you no recourse from the manufacturer nor any adverse reaction reporting to the FDA.

Interceptor is not prohibitively expensive.

 

[Teri]

I use Ivomec for all my dogs, however when I have a bitch who is pregnant I purchase either Interceptor or a heartguard-type product. While many people with long successful breeding programs dose all dog/bitches/puppies every month with a significant dose of Ivomec with seemingly no problems, I feel better purchasing a product dosed correctly for only HW for a pregnant bitch. I also now do the same for my 14 yr old bitch with some renal issues.

I choose to give HW preventative year round as I feel the risks of not doing so ( even considering possible risks to the puppies) are much greater than the risk of HW exposure living in SE Texas. I am normally very careful with chemical exposure to pregnant bitches.

Teri
M.S. in Toxicology for my day job

 

[labdoc]

Ed,

Would your advice be the same for those people giving the injectable ivermectin orally? Since the dosage is several times that of HeartGuard I was wondering if it was ok for pregnant bitches.

Why WOULD you dose it at a higher dosage for heartworm prevention?

 

[achiro]

Ed,

Would your advice be the same for those people giving the injectable ivermectin orally? Since the dosage is several times that of HeartGuard I was wondering if it was ok for pregnant bitches.

Why WOULD you dose it at a higher dosage for heartworm prevention?

http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=42437
maybe?

 

[labdoc]

Ed,

Would your advice be the same for those people giving the injectable ivermectin orally? Since the dosage is several times that of HeartGuard I was wondering if it was ok for pregnant bitches.

Why WOULD you dose it at a higher dosage for heartworm prevention?

http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=42437
maybe?

Sorry I don't see any evidence there, not even anecdotal evidence that a higher dose would be more effective.

 

[achiro]

Ed,

Would your advice be the same for those people giving the injectable ivermectin orally? Since the dosage is several times that of HeartGuard I was wondering if it was ok for pregnant bitches.

Why WOULD you dose it at a higher dosage for heartworm prevention?

http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=42437
maybe?

Sorry I don't see any evidence there, not even anecdotal evidence that a higher dose would be more effective.

OK so are you suggesting to back down on the amount of Ivermectin so that the effective dosage is the same then? :wink:

 

[Ken Archer]

Why WOULD you dose it at a higher dosage for heartworm prevention?

I mix 20 ml of Ivermectin with 80 ml of Propylene Glycol to make a 100 ml bottle. Mixed at this ratio, the dose is 1 ml per 20 lbs of body weight given orally once a month. At this dose it should control hookworms, roundworms, whipworms, ear mites and sarcoptic mange mites as well as prevent heartworms. It will kill the herding breeds, however, and I believe that is why there is such a weak dose in Heartguard.

 

[labdoc]

OK so are you suggesting to back down on the amount of Ivermectin so that the effective dosage is the same then? :wink:

OK, I'll bite since Ed wouldn't. :lol: The dose for heartworm prevention is 6 micrograms/kg and Ken's dose is 220 micrograms/kg. I personally would not be comfortable giving that dosage to developing puppies whose blood-brain barrier could be inadequate to prevent toxicity.

As far as endoparasites are concerned, ivermectin being off label would not be my first choice since labeled products are very effective (and available OTC if that is your reason).