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Was I wrong? Am I unethical? Will I go to Hell?

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Was I wrong? Am I unethical? Will I go to Hell?

I have been following the threads about training on setup and training off test grounds/on test grounds very closely. Here is my own scenario. It is true. I did it. It happened a few years ago, not saying when.
I was working a test as the general lugger of everything and moving from stake to stake, scampering mightily, as I always do. Many RTFers who see me in action can attest to this, the pickup is everywhere all weekend.
A person from out of state who is a familiar face at my clubs tests was running a dog/dogs in junior, that is AKC JUNIOR not any high publicity SRS or all important Open at a field trial. A simple AKC junior. The test, land series was set up with a few of the clubs Canada Goose decoys off to the side of the line, not a lot, less than a dozen. The handler was very concerned about this because the dog had never seen a goose decoy. From the clutter in my truck I handed the handler a holding blind and two goose decoys. I directed the handler "around the block" to a field I personally had farmer permission to use for training. Now around the block in Addison is a wase but still in faint earshot of the excitement of the test. The handler worked dogs with the holding blind and decoys the rest of the morning and ran first after lunch. The dog was perfect running past the decoys at the test. As I recall the dog failed anyway. But not because of the decoys. Because it could not mark a Sirloin in a Supper dish. But that is nether hear nor there. The question is about me.
Was I wrong? Am I unethical? Will I go to Hell?
 

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In those circumstances Ken, I think you did a great thing. We all started someplace and more than once I went "oh sh!t", she's never seen that before.
 

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My personal opinion... Since this is not a competitive event where winners are chosen in head-to-head competition, I wouldn't be offended by it. If it were a FT or SRS, I'd be ticked off...
 

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I voted no if it is in junior with a novice. Many show up and have just thrown bumpers. Like you said they usually fail because they need to learn what to train on. In junior I think this happens. Some dogs have never seen a duck, a decoy, a silloutte, a blind.
 

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Naw. You may get toasted a bit, that's all. All of us started somewhere sometime. How many times have you seen a handler ask the marshall for a bird at the JH stake and go behind the trucks and get a dog to pick it up, since the dog had not seen many birds in training. And the marshall goes and gets one off the rack and gives it to the handler with words such as; "I want the bird back, and try to stay out of sight when you use it."

Unethical Not in my book. Helping a newbie get the "bug" Awriiiiiight! :wink:
 

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Ken, your probably going to hell. No idea if has anything to do with this. Might have something to do with not sending me syrup or something. This might actually bring up a good question on ethics.

/Paul
 

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Brevard Arndt said:
Naw. You may get toasted a bit, that's all. All of us started somewhere sometime. How many times have you seen a handler ask the marshall for a bird at the JH stake and go behind the trucks and get a dog to pick it up, since the dog had not seen many birds in training. And the marshall goes and gets one off the rack and gives it to the handler with words such as; "I want the bird back, and try to stay out of sight when you use it."

Unethical Not in my book. Helping a newbie get the "bug" Awriiiiiight! :wink:


Isn't that the way it is suppose to work. I know that some of those that have trained several dogs skip the Junior but there are those who need it.(myself included) Hopefully the end of next month.

I doubt you are going to Hell Ken. Look at it this way, if just 1 or 2 of those handlers in the Junior start to become serious in their training you may get some help next year and not have to scramble around as much.
 

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No way!

We should help NICE newbies as much as we can.

I am sure that quite a few of us are going to hell, but it doesn't have anything to do with that incident. :lol: 8) :wink:

Sondra
 

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Ken Bora said:
Was I wrong? Am I unethical? Will I go to Hell?

I have been following the threads about training on setup and training off test grounds/on test grounds very closely. Here is my own scenario. It is true. I did it. It happened a few years ago, not saying when.
I was working a test as the general lugger of everything and moving from stake to stake, scampering mightily, as I always do. Many RTFers who see me in action can attest to this, the pickup is everywhere all weekend.
A person from out of state who is a familiar face at my clubs tests was running a dog/dogs in junior, that is AKC JUNIOR not any high publicity SRS or all important Open at a field trial. A simple AKC junior. The test, land series was set up with a few of the clubs Canada Goose decoys off to the side of the line, not a lot, less than a dozen. The handler was very concerned about this because the dog had never seen a goose decoy. From the clutter in my truck I handed the handler a holding blind and two goose decoys. I directed the handler "around the block" to a field I personally had farmer permission to use for training. Now around the block in Addison is a wase but still in faint earshot of the excitement of the test. The handler worked dogs with the holding blind and decoys the rest of the morning and ran first after lunch. The dog was perfect running past the decoys at the test. As I recall the dog failed anyway. But not because of the decoys. Because it could not mark a Sirloin in a Supper dish. But that is nether hear nor there. The question is about me.
Was I wrong? Am I unethical? Will I go to Hell?
And Ken, if I remember correctly, wasn't that handler a still wet-behind-the-ears young man by the name of Mike Lardy? Imagine if it wasn't for your momentary lapse of "ethics" where would he, or the thousands of trainers he has gone on to assist, be today?

Every time Ken Bora unloads his truck, an angel gets his wings. Or something like that.
 

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I guess I'm in trouble too. I regularly give novice handlers and their novice dogs birds (ducks or pheasants) to make sure the dog will pick the bird up or deliver to hand.

I can't believe that people will enter even the lowest levels of field work without having first done this (but they do)!


John
 

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When I was an AKC field rep, I attended a Junior test that was using chukars in the first setup, a pair of land singles. One was thrown as a dead bird, one was thrown and shot as a flyer.

I was standing near the marshal and watching the test, when a woman came up in tears, almost apoplectic about the fact that her dog had never even SEEN a chukar, much less retrieved one. The marshal, using all the resources at her command, looked at the lady and a said, "Here's an AKC rep....tell him about it."

:? ...........................

I said, "Ma'am, did you fill out a premium and send it in the to the event secretary to enter your dog in the Junior test level?"

She replied, "Yes, I did."

I said, "Do you remember the part in the premium about what sort of game birds are to be used in this test?"

She said, "That's IN THERE?" :shock: (The "shock" icon is exactly how her face looked.........)

I had a copy of it in my pocket, which I showed to her. It said, "Ducks/pheasants/chukar/quail in all test levels."

She looked almost as desperate as the typical junior handler waiting on Fido to deliver to hand after a water retrieve. I said, "Now, clearly, the club was covering all of its bases when it came to pre-test planning and the procurement of any usable game bird. I can honestly say that I've never seen, and never hope to see, a quail used at a retriever hunting test. That said, I bet that if you ask this nice lady with the clipboard here if you can 'borrow' one of her chukar for awhile, she'll gladly let you have one if you return it to her at your earliest convenience."

She said to the marshal: "Can I borrow a bird?", to which the marshal said, "Sure, just make sure you return it before you run 'cause it'll throw off my dead bird count." (They were only running one dead bird station.... :? ........and it was a JUNIOR test..... :roll: ).

Anyway, she thanked me and before she walked away, I said, "Now, you need to find out where you can go to let your dog pick up this bird so that you aren't considered to be training on the grounds. Look at the map that came with your premium; it'll show you where you can go and not get into trouble." She thanked me again and left with a smile on her face. I have no idea if she passed, but I know for sure the marshal got her bird back! :wink:

It doesn't take much to help people....just a friendly heart and a mind for how you'd like to be treated yourself.

kg
 

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Heaven

Someone's bound to ask "where do you draw the line?" There's always discretion to be used and everybody's level is different, but this doesn't come close to crossing the line in my book. I recall my first HT. Dawg had never seen field goose decoys. She did check them out before proceeding to the mark. Got dinged a point for it, but rightfully so.
 

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I remember a junior test I was judging once. It was in a very short hay field. my co-judge and I thought that it could look like a goose field so we borrowed the landowner's goose sillos(with his permission) and made an attractive goose spread. We kept two of them back and placed them in the space between the 1st holding blind and the 2nd so that all dogs had to pass by them, handlers could let the dogs get close and smell them or whatever.

Most dogs dealt with them fine and most handlers could hardly speak when they came to the line. But all were grateful that we gave them the opportunity to show their dogs the unusual decoys before hand.
 

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It's not really difficult to be nice and still be well within the rules.

A memory that will be burned into my brain until I die comes to mind.

The third Derby I ever ran used pheasants. As Keith pointed out, I knew from the premium that they would be used but as a newbie, I had no idea where to get one for training and I did not know enough to ask for one at the Trial.

After my dog delivered the last one to hand in the first series I made the comment that I was very happy and relieved because she had never seen a pheasant.

The sorry, inconsiderate, Horse's Ass of a judge (did I mention that I don't like this person?) sarcastically asked "What the f&%$ do you train with? BLACKBIRDS?"

I will never forget that man!!!!

Additionally I will never forget the woman that came to me a couple of weeks ago and asked if I remembered calling her dog back in the first series of the Lone Star Derby a couple of years ago. Well I did remember.

Her dog had a little bit of a glitch but nothing significant. The reason I said anything to her at all was because she showed her dog the birds before removing the lead & collar, as did a couple of other handlers. I reminded each that, in my opinion, the lead and collar should be removed "upon arrival at the line", not after they had been shown the birds.

She then nervously asked "Am I dropped? Are you gonna drop me?"

My response was "No Ma'am, not in this series. But only because you're so Damn good looking". :twisted: :twisted:

Evidently that made somewhat of a favorable impression on her and she also learned to remove the lead upon arrival.

Jerry
 
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I voted that your doomed. Not because of giving your friend the decoys but because of this:
As I recall the dog failed anyway. But not because of the decoys. Because it could not mark a Sirloin in a Supper dish.
Thats harsh. :twisted:
 

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Send maple syrup and you have my vote for "an alright guy."
 

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Send maple syrup and you have my vote for "an alright guy."
 

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I was at an AKC Master test several years ago and they were using Chuckers instead of ducks on the land for live flyers. Many dogs had never seen or smelled a chucker. THe judges could have let everyone fail that had not seen a chucker, but instead they gave a bird to the marshall for anyone that wanted to show there dog.

I think you did the right thing.

my 2cents
 
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