[FOM]

:arrow: This is at a trial, not training.
:arrow: Water blind over a point.
:arrow: Distance not really an issue.
:arrow: You are dog #1 so you do not get to watch any other dogs except test dog run, so realitive to the rest of the field goes out the window.
:arrow: Clean marks, clean land blind - you are not running this blind with the thought you have to be perfect to make it to the water marks, just got to run the blind.
:arrow: Know nothing about the judges, they offer no comments about the blind other than it is over there and the line is here, have at it.
:arrow: It is obvious you must take the point.
:arrow: Did I cover everything? (Probably not )
:arrow: See, I didn't : wind direction coming from right to left across the point. The point was was scented.

So there you are on the line. You send the dog - your game plan is "red." You let your dog take a line that makes it think you want him/her to go around the point and at the last possible moment you give a right angle (almost and over) to get him/her on the point. (note: my drawing isn't the best). Continue to handle and finish up the blind.

Or you decide to go with the "blue" game plan. You start out similar lines as the red plan, letting the dog think you want him/her to go around, but stop sooner to change direction of the dog to try and communicate you want him/her to go over the point. Well dog over thinks and tries to go fatter than you want as they might get caught up in the scent. So quick whistle and cast left back - dog once again goes a little wide of the cast so another whistle is needed. Dog gets on the point this time where you want him/her to be and you continue on with the blind.

So which is "better" :? Or worded differently, which one has the better potential of getting you carried to the water marks?

Yes I realize each has it flaws, but you have to have a game plan.

The red dog - who almost goes past the point, but takes an over to cross it.

The blue dog - who has a few whistles to get on the point.

FOM

 

[J Fleming]

water blind

Blue dog has better blind IMHO. Challenged the point more. For alot of judges i don't think the red dog "got enough of the point". Could be dropped for that.

This should be another interesting thread.

Jason

 

[ducksoup]

great question -- I would think the red dog would be seen as doing a good enough blind to be carried as fewer handles/whistles and got to point -- but blue dog challenged the point more even though more handles -- believe both would be carried and let subsequent work (especially marking series) sort out placements.

 

[Polock]

Lainee, I think the red dog did the best work, as it took the line the handler gave him/her, got enough of the point, and came in on the downwind side of the bird as he/she should have.
Both dawgs did adequate enough work to go on to the water marks.......

 

[Tim Carrion]

Blue dog:
This dog challenged the line to the point better initially and after the handling to-over-past the point.
Tim

 

[FOM]

It was asked via PM why I would even consider the approach of allowing the dog to think "go around the point."

You know this dog will try and beach early if you dare to give it any right back casts whether straight up or angled. Then you will end up in a pissing match and out of the hunt for sure.

In my specific case I have a young dog - who is very black and white in the head - he is either is watery or dry land focused. For example, I could aim him for the middle of the point and if I were to stop and give a left back in his pea brain he would think "go around" even if I stopped him just a few yards in front of the point.....that's just him. We are training through this and trying to teach him its okay to take just a little bit of land. Also note if I gave him a right back he would try and take way too much point....

After training last night I was wondering if that was a blind at a trial how would/should you handle it. Trailing and training are two different things and sometimes those little hidden no-no's get ya. For example if he were to wrap around the point and go out of sight a little "tweet-tweet" can be the kiss of death even if its because of cover vs. being out of control. Some judges could give a flip about the come-in whistle other judges just close their books.

I'm just trying to learn what gets you to the end and what doesn't. The derby was so much easier and less to digest - trying to move on up and I feel dumb as a rock some days!

FOM

 

[ducksoup]

As dumb as a rock??? I find that hard to believe of you Lainee. Great question as it opens a lot of thought -- trialling can be very different than training so questions like this makes you think of what you need when you're in a trial and training lets you prepare for it

 

[Terry Britton]

I picked the Dashed Line dog, but couldn't find that choice.

Other than that, the blue dog looked like it tried to make the line more even though it ended up sloppier with more handles.

 

[FOM]

As dumb as a rock??? I find that hard to believe of you Lainee. Great question as it opens a lot of thought -- trialling can be very different than training so questions like this makes you think of what you need when you're in a trial and training lets you prepare for it

Yes dumb as a rock! Trust me......I've got a lot of respect for those handlers who are successful, both Pro and Ams. I have many, many years to go to gain the knowledge I need to be a decent handler. For now I struggle along and try to learn as much as I can....

FOM

 

[greyghost]

Hi Lainee ...Good question. I think the blue dog challenging the point comes out better in the judges view. Would have liked to have seen a handle sooner to ensure a better line over the point by the blue dog. Never wrong to challenge the factors. May you have many fun years to keep learning....I'm on the same journey .....pete

 

[Jerry]

I think Red Dog handler was a little slow in giving the first cast. Should have been about the same spot that Blue Dog handler did with the wind as described. With a scented point, I would like for my dog to be a little upwind on that point. Makes that next cast a little less intimidating.

But as a handler on the water blind, I would take either job and let the Judges sort it out. That's why they get paid the Big Bucks.

Jerry

 

[Howard N]

My first thought was they both did the blind and both get carried. BUT, the red dog was always left of line and never really got on it. To some judges this is a big no no, they like dogs to cross the center line or meridian as I've heard some call it. Personally, I'd rather try for the blue work as I think it's safer with more judges. In a qually I'd expect both jobs to go to the next series.

I like your question and drawing Lainee.

 

[Gerard Rozas]

If you could garentee me that every waterblind my dog ran for the rest of his career was a red blind - I WOULD TAKE THAT DEAL!!!

Dogs that fight factors (wind and suction to the point) and carry a line a long distance are what we are looking for in this game. Add to that he took direction when ordered and did a great re-entry.

The Red dog did a smooth, clean, in control, and pleasing to the eye blind.

 

[Goldenboy]

Blue. If for no other reason than I believe the dog learned something. Red learns nothing. Some people feel that standards have to be maintained regardless of circumstances, trialing or training. It can be a revelation to watch a handler pick up their dog, even though it was doing an "adequate" job, because the work didn't conform to their training principles. Several years back I watched Newt Cropper call in his dog at a trial and mutter to himself, "that's not how I train."

 

[Steve Amrein]

My gues is both dogs would be carried. Then we get to the "but" or it depends. If you know the dog well enough and if it was watery. How old was the dog and how honest. Given the wind direction I would think both dogs caved in to the wind. So I would have kept the dog to the right a wee bit. If the dog is watery you could have a problem trying to get on the point with a in to the wind cast. Also depending on the terrain on the line and the point if the dogs get out of sight if to the right once past the point. Lastly even as both dogs were cast of the point and the dog with the dashed line did not take a cast off the point it would prolly be good insurance to give a over to get back in the water. Not back (to the truck)

having a plan to run a blind is great but like going to war is it changes when boots/paws hit the ground

 

[K G]

I would tend to carry both dogs, but I would tend to handle like the "blue" dog rather than the red.

I've seen too many blinds like this where the handler only put the dog on the point 'cause the point was on line. The red dog was on line twice: when he left the line, and when he got the bird.

The blue dog handler and dog are trying harder to do the blind on line. The red dog and handler are not....but I don't think I'd consider the red dog's work a failure.

But if all other work is equal, the blue dog wins at the end.

IMHO, of course..... :wink:

kg

 

[Shayne Mehringer]

It is against my religion to vote "Blue" in any sort of poll. Can you switch colors around?

The "Blue" dog had a better blind. I wouldn't drop either dog, neither had a bad blind... neither had a great blind. Ol Blue challenged the line and paid respect to my factors by going right at them.

SM

 

[Ken Guthrie]

Give me RED anyday.

I don't care what anyone says, when comparing one to the other, the red is more often to be the better line in the eyes of MOST judges.

Oh, and what Jerry said, I woul have taken red but blown the first whistle a little bit quicker. :wink:

 

[K G]

I don't care what anyone says....

There's a shocker....... 8) .............

kg

 

[Ken Guthrie]

Huh?

Did someone say something?........... :roll: