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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I have been asked the question "If you breed a Dark Fox Red to a Creme Yellow labradors together what color would you get?"
Below are the two dogs in question.

Dog Mammal Vertebrate Dog breed Canidae Dog Vertebrate Dog breed Canidae Mammal


What do you think would be the color of the puppies? Elaborate if the answer is genetically based please.


Thanks
 

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I have been asked the question "If you breed a Dark Fox Red to a Creme Yellow labradors together what color would you get?"
Below are the two dogs in question.

View attachment 7784 View attachment 7785


What do you think would be the color of the puppies? Elaborate if the answer is genetically based please.


Thanks
Not all yellows can throw the dark red color. So, you may end up with all light to medium yellow. If the dog can throw a dark red, you can get a rainbow of light to dark, or a light, medium and a couple of darks...
 

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The question revolves around 3 genes, E, A, and C

In order to be a true fox-red the dog must carry 2 recessive (aa) and a dominate C (expression gene) The darkest Fox red you can get would be ee,aa,CC but they could also be ee,aa,Cc
The white dog Carries at least 1 probably 2 dominate (AA) genes (more A=less color) and (cc) (minimal expression gene). The whitest yellow coloration you could get would be ee,AA,cc.

With the genetic extremes you would get ee,Aa,Cc, yellow dog somewhere in the middle, (most likely)

The white dog most likely does not carry the dominate C otherwise he'd be more yellow. However He could carry a recessive (a) -red color gene, the yellow saddling pattern on his back & his ear might suggest that he does but it is covered by the (cc) condition. This would give the White a ee,Aa,cc genotype crossed with fox-red ee,aa,Cc would give you the most variation
So offspring could be
ee,aa,Cc (fox-red)
ee,Aa,cc light yellow
ee,aa,cc yellow
ee,Aa,Cc yellow

You can now genetically test for A and C genes which would give you a better idea.

http://labbies.com/genetics2.htm#FoxReds
 

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I will let you know next week...:p:D

Mark L
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
The question revolves around 3 genes, E, A, and C

In order to be a true fox-red the dog must carry 2 recessive (aa) and a dominate C (expression gene) The darkest Fox red you can get would be ee,aa,CC but they could also be ee,aa,Cc
The white dog Carries at least 1 probably 2 dominate (AA) genes (more A=less color) and (cc) (minimal expression gene). The whitest yellow coloration you could get would be ee,AA,cc.

With the genetic extremes you would get ee,Aa,Cc, yellow dog somewhere in the middle, (most likely)

The white dog most likely does not carry the dominate C otherwise he'd be more yellow. However He could carry a recessive (a) -red color gene, the yellow saddling pattern on his back & his ear might suggest that he does but it is covered by the (cc) condition. This would give the White a ee,Aa,cc genotype crossed with fox-red ee,aa,Cc would give you the most variation
So offspring could be
ee,aa,Cc (fox-red)
ee,Aa,cc light yellow
ee,aa,cc yellow
ee,Aa,Cc yellow

You can now genetically test for A and C genes which would give you a better idea.

http://labbies.com/genetics2.htm#FoxReds
Thank you for this information. This is exactly what I was looking for.
 

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The question revolves around 3 genes, E, A, and C

In order to be a true fox-red the dog must carry 2 recessive (aa) and a dominate C (expression gene) The darkest Fox red you can get would be ee,aa,CC but they could also be ee,aa,Cc
The white dog Carries at least 1 probably 2 dominate (AA) genes (more A=less color) and (cc) (minimal expression gene). The whitest yellow coloration you could get would be ee,AA,cc.

With the genetic extremes you would get ee,Aa,Cc, yellow dog somewhere in the middle, (most likely)

The white dog most likely does not carry the dominate C otherwise he'd be more yellow. However He could carry a recessive (a) -red color gene, the yellow saddling pattern on his back & his ear might suggest that he does but it is covered by the (cc) condition. This would give the White a ee,Aa,cc genotype crossed with fox-red ee,aa,Cc would give you the most variation
So offspring could be
ee,aa,Cc (fox-red)
ee,Aa,cc light yellow
ee,aa,cc yellow
ee,Aa,Cc yellow

You can now genetically test for A and C genes which would give you a better idea.

http://labbies.com/genetics2.htm#FoxReds
I doubt some of this.

No objections on ee.

Although there is something that changes the color of red pigment, it's not chinchilla, the C locus. It's not known what or where the mutation takes place, but it doesn't seem to be the same mutation as in other species, like horses or mice. http://homepage.usask.ca/~schmutz/dilutions.html#chinchilla So I don't know what that genetic test is testing for, because if it's looking for mutations in the tyrosinase gene, it's never going to find any. Personally, I am of the opinion it is unlikely to be a single gene that controls the intensity of red pigment, I think it's more likely to be something like a copy-number variant http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copy-number_variation

If I'm reading that right, it's putting solid color dogs on the A locus. That's outdated, we now look to the K locus (for blacK) for whether a dog is solid or a mixture of black and red (black and tan points, saddled like a German Shepherd, agouti like an Elkhound). There's a chart on that website that puts brindle on A, it's not it's on K. This is probably the best website about dog coat color genetics: http://homepage.usask.ca/~schmutz/dogcolors.html There used to be another one with more illustrations and less tech-y to understand, but it's gone down and I can't even find a cache of it.

For a fox red x cream mating, I'd expect most of the puppies to cluster around a medium yellow color. When those puppies are bred you may see a wider range of color.
 

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Definitely not a single gene for color or (even a single gene for yellow) at least 3 probably more with various modifiers etc. There are E, A, C, D, K and possibly many more, that haven't been described yet, and most are still based on observation, and as you say studies of genes found in other animals-other breeds.

Still I believe the K loci is a determinate of bridling, and that the K loci is all but fixed in the Lab to Kb (k solid) which is indicated by the solid color dispersal in the breed http://www.genetics.org/content/176/3/1679.full

The C loci has been described as the dilution of red (phaeomelanin) pigment to a lighter shade of tan or yellow, if not genetically proven in dogs, it is pretty much accepted as a color modifier in most breeds. http://www.ansci.cornell.edu/usdagen/mult_alleles. html http://www.wwsva.com/colour-genetics

I know from personal testing that if you test for yellow you get results back on the Aa (red) loci, which determines if they carry the Red. I also know that the fox-red people believe the loci C, (no color dilution) to be absolutely necessary to describe a true fox-red. http://penara.com/foxred3.html

It's fun to hypothesize on color and genetics associated with it, but I believe we all agree, the pups will come out yellow, probably somewhere inbtw ;)
 

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"What color would you get"?

Simple, I would get BLACK.

Lonster
 

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I spoke a little too soon, or should I say looked at the little pictures on my phone without my glasses.:)

The female is the one in my avatar. The male is not as dark as the picture you have, he is more along the lines of a dark yellow/light red. I know his mother was a fox red though. I will still try to get a picture of him to send you.

Mark
 

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I have a 13 month old female. Her dam was really light colored, and her sire was fox red. She is in between. She has a red tint, but just not as dark as her dad.

 
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