[achiro]

If you could see into the future of a pup, lets say he would be a 4 time NFC/NAFC both titles 4 years running with you handling BUT the catch is that he is a carrier for RD and Throws bad hips...50% of all his pups would end up with the genetic problems, the other 50% would be carriers, but every pup he throws has the potential to title(he throws GREAT PUPS) what do you do?
Add this into the mix, lets say you have to sink a lot of money into the dog to reach this potential.

 

[Kristie Wilder]

Keep him, run him for the experience and fun/achievement, but don't breed him, and neuter him later down the line...

-kristie

 

[Lisa S.]

How about...

Keep him, run him, breed him on a very limited basis to breeders you trust will have: all pups sold on limited registration, eyes CERF before they go to their homes. Buyer shows CERF 6 months after and yearly. If that's all clear, limited is lifted when hips and elbows get their OFA numbers.

Whaddyah think?

--Lisa

 

[Howard N]

4 time NFC, 4 time NAFC and I'm not breeding? At a minimum they'll be a couple three litters for me. If others are willing to take a chance and will cull hard (in our enlightened age neuter them). How do you know he throws great pups?

Still, that's the best national running dog in history. I'd never believe it shouldn't be bred. Cull hard.

 

[Anthony Heath]

I think I'm with Howard and jlnLisa with the added note that I'd be forthright with the retriever community about the "issues".

A.

 

[Jay Dufour]

Thats right....

Put out a bunch more carriers into the gene pool.You cant cull out carriers.They may CERF,they may OFA....but they still will be carriers.

 

[Angie B]

I'm with Lisa and Howard. Be very objective and cull hard!!!!!!

I might ad as a competitor I might be a little put out if I were competeing against a dog that was winning everything and would never be bred. I know that, that is a somewhat "show ring" type attitude. But that's how I feel.

Angie

 

[Lisa Van Loo]

I am with Howard. Cull hard.

Heck, everybody is a carrier for SOMETHING. If you eliminated every carrier, there wouldn't be any dogs. In fact, every human carries (on average) 8 lethal genes. Not small-potatoes, like hip dysplasia genes, but pure-D genuine "the kid's gonna die" LETHAL genes.

So, everybody immediately stop having sex (for the good of the human race, of course! ).

Talking about culling hard. :shock:

Lisa - thinks there are worse things than hip dysplasia

 

[North Mountain]

I've had to answer this question for myself already. My 5 year old has moderate hip dysplasia. It was heartbreaking to find out that my dog who had 17 derby points (with me as handler) would not be breeding material. I had him neutered, no question for me. There are plenty of nice studs out there that have good hips, including his brother who has good hips as did 6 of the 10 in his litter who were xrayed. I have a nice pup out of the brother and continue to run Riker but it is sad to see that one leg lag just a bit behind the others on a dog who should be in his prime .

 

[Last Frontier Labs]

Culling hard???

Just exactly what is "culling hard"? Are you keeping every pup in the litter and waiting to see what genetic time bombs explode? Then do you dispose of those whose bombs have exploded. Purposely producing lame and blind pups for the purpose of "maybe" having a great dog....???
I pray that there are alot of Danny Farmers out there who are willing to take the cast off animals....

I thought this was supposed to be fun....

 

[achiro]

Just exactly what is "culling hard"?

I'll take this one. In this day and age, "culling hard" only means you don't breed the dog until clearances are given, if they don't clear then they are spayed/neutered.

 

[Last Frontier Labs]

So...

If you are culling hard, you only look at the clearances of prospective mates for the dog and not of your own dog? Afterall one wouldn't be able to gain clearances for dysplastic dog.....

 

[achiro]

I think maybe you are misunderstanding this. IN this hypothetical situation. The sire(your dog) is clear but 1/2 half of his pups will not be. The folks are saying that those 50% should be fixed and not bred("culled hard") The other 50% are OK to breed, of course keeping in mind that they are carriers and you want to try to find a mate that is not.

 

[Last Frontier Labs]

Thought the dog in question was dysplastic....sorry

I still don't think the dog should be bred. Given the genetics, there will always be pups that are carriers or others, that even though you culled hard, would be afflicted....
Genetic defects in labs seem to be on the increase.....too much breeding of dogs who shouldn't be bred. We've got to be more vigilant.

 

[WRL]

I'm with Kristie on this....

Although Hip Dysplasia will be present always and RD can be screened out as a pup.

But substitute something like muscle myopathy or EIC or epilepsy and then NO WAY JOSE!

Run him, have fun, win win win....but no breeding for him.

As far as "humans" being carriers of deadly diseases.....well one...we are HUMAN.....two, if you have ever undergone the protein tests when pregnant to check for possible down syndrome or other "brain malfunctions" on an unborn baby.....THAT IS A REALITY CHECK!

WRL

 

[Troy Williams]

TRUE COLORS

Ahhhh Howard N......In the hypothetical he said, "If you could see into the future......" That is how we know he throws nice pups!

Question Howard N.....Why just two or three litters?

 

[paul young]

i would really enjoy owning and running such a dog. i think breeding (especially with the knowledge afforded by the crystal ball) him would be irresponsible.

that's how the current health problems afflicting labs got a foothold to begin with.

i agree that a good dog is more than just good hips, clear eyes,etc. i just think when you're at the bottom of a hole, wondering how you got there, it's time to stop diggin'.

i was a little dismayed to read that some people would be upset that a neutered animal was so successful, since that is my choice of dog to compete with. i guess i like to think that everybody's rooting for the dogs, even if they're not breeding material.-paul

 

[Howard N]

I've had to answer this question for myself already. My 5 year old has moderate hip dysplasia. It was heartbreaking to find out that my dog who had 17 derby points (with me as handler) would not be breeding material. I had him neutered, no question for me. There are plenty of nice studs out there that have good hips, including his brother who has good hips as did 6 of the 10 in his litter who were xrayed. I have a nice pup out of the brother and continue to run Riker but it is sad to see that one leg lag just a bit behind the others on a dog who should be in his prime

Hi Laura, your post raised a few questions in my mind and I hope you'll answer them.

I can see not breeding a dog with 17 derby points. He's proved he's a good marker but there were probably 15 or 20 dogs who had more derby points that year. So on derby points of that year alone and nothing else, there would probably be 7-10 male dogs ahead of him on the derby list, and some of them would be breedable. (I love making up statistics )

BUT! I wonder about the neutering. Did it have any affect on his drive???????? Do you feel he wants birds just as much as before? Did you notice any change, no matter how subtle?

When I first got started I trained with two guys who each had hip displasia in one hip of their dogs. One dog was an FC/AFC and the other only got his AFC. Neither were bred but neither ever showed signs of displasia until they were quite old. Both died at 12 but they were both ambulatory up until they died. I honestly can't say that either dog ever showed any signs of being displastic. I mean I expect 11 and 12 year old FC/AFC's to be a little stiff.

In the years that I've trained I haven't been around any other displastic dogs that I know of. I've kind of felt that at least in field lines of labs, that while you don't want to breed to a displastic dog, they were usually pretty sound and would have a normal career. You are finding that not true with your dog? Does he get out of the crate a little rough? Does he start limping after a little work? Can he go 4 series in a day? Will rimadel, etagesic, or some other "magic" pill bring him back to chasing around like a puppy again?

I want to know if you find this crippling, slows him down somewhat, or has no affect?

Thanks for your time. I haven't been around a field dog who was symtomatically displastic.

 

[Angie B]

Hey Paul,

Sorry to disappoint you. I feel competitive dogs, dogs that carry points and get placements, are to be reproduction quality. If they are spayed and neutered and are playing the "competitive" game. They should step aside. Competitive dogs are our standard and who we breed to. I don't care if it is for fun. I will apologize again but I'm a hard A## about this. The thought of running against a multiple national open winner that is altered, or will never be bred, for what ever reason "frosts" me.

Angie

 

[Howard N]

Question Howard N.....Why just two or three litters?

I'd breed when I wanted a pup. I can train two dogs at a time. When I retire maybe 3. But that's all I want. If I'm training the 4 x NFC NAFC and two of his puppies my training plate would be pretty full. But damn that'd be great I'd need a BIG break when the run was over.

If other people wanted to breed to him I KNOW I'd let it out but I'm not sure how. The greatest national dog in history should be bred. It'd be great if they had genetic markers and tests for them. Carriers could be weeded out of his get. Some of them would be genetically clean and great dogs.