[Clark Mason]

I'm new to retriever (or any dog, for that matter) training. I've been doing a lot of reading and some training with some experienced trainers. I keep seeing and hearing the word "pressure" used when I'm almost sure the word should be punishment.

Is "pressure" just a euphamism(sp?) for punishment in most cases?

I guess I understand the term being used in negative reinforcement training to refer to the "unpleasant" (I guess painful would be more correct) stimulus.

Any help with this out there?

 

[Angie B]

Pressure = stress. Whether it's mental or physical. Stress/pressure is not always unpleasant. Many dogs thrive on it just like people. The big thing is teaching dogs how to deal with it. Plus there are alot of dogs that can't deal with much mental/physical pressure. Again just like people.

Hope this helps?

Angie

 

[KRL]

Great response Angie.

I agree pressure is not always and is frequently not punishment. Drill work is a form of pressure even when no punishment is given. Punishment is always a form of pressure but pressure is not always from punishment.

I contend that even people who use very low levels of punishment still subject their dogs to pressure. You can't train a dog effectively to be a retriever with no punishment. At least not reliably and not to an advanced level. You have to demand some things sooner or later with some form of punishment.

 

[Clark Mason]

Thanks, that helps. Maybe I should think of "pressure" as a challange.

I still think some people use "pressure" when they more correctly should say "punishment".

 

[KRL]

YOu could seperate it and call pressure punishment in some cases.

What would you call an ear pinch pressure or punishment? In my opinion it is just pressure until it is understood and then it is punishiment once it is well understood. YOu teach them to turn off the pressure (not punishment) of the ear pinch and once they understand it you use the ear pinch as punishment to enforce fetch or disobedience.

ONce they have been through force fetch and understand it then saying fetch is pressure but applying the ear pinch is punisment to an experienced dog.

You aren't really punishing the dog in all situations with collar pressure in my opinion. Pressure and punishment are different. Most times I am applying pressure with the collar and not punishing. To me there is a difference. Very few effective trainers really punish there dogs. They apply varying levels of pressure for different infractions in different sitaions for different levels of dogs. I think experienced trainers aren't trying to cover anyting up by using the word pressure. IT is just pressure is a more accurrate term to what they are actually doing.

Punishment is not an effective training tactic but pressure is extremely effective. Pressure is SO MUCH more than punishment.

 

[Gina]

awesome response!

 

[Terry Thomas]

I like equating pressure to stress. Many dogs create pressure on their own without it being handler induced. This is true of many "High Rollers" as the birds start falling the pressure starts building. The dog wants to get out there and pick up a bird. The build up of pressure in this type of dog can lead to many of the "line manner flaws" we see in these dogs. You also see self induced pressure in the more timid dog. This dog comes to the line and gets all stressed out with the need to perform and starts worrying thus building up pressure. In either case this self induced pressure tends to lead to problems and it becomes the handler or trainers job to limit it.

 

[Clark Mason]

The following can probably be blamed on one too many Psychology classes but here goes:

As I understand it, as trainers we are trying to modify the dogs behavior. I think I can only remember four "tools" or methods of modifying behavior:

1. Positive reinforcement - R+ - dog sits on cue, dog gets reward i.e. a pleasant stimulus is given for behavior
2. Negative reinforcement - R- - ear pinch is removed once bumper is in mouth i.e. an unpleasant stimulus is removed for behavior
3. Positive Punishment - P+ - collar nick for failure to sit i.e. an unpleasant stimulus is given for behavior
4. Negative Punishment - P- - bumper is taken away for failure to hold i.e a pleasant stimulus is removed for behavior.

Given that (and I'm not sure that's a given), where does the type of "pressure" you guys are talking about fit in?

 

[Angie B]

The following can probably be blamed on one too many Psychology classes but here goes:

As I understand it, as trainers we are trying to modify the dogs behavior. I think I can only remember four "tools" or methods of modifying behavior:

1. Positive reinforcement - R+ - dog sits on cue, dog gets reward i.e. a pleasant stimulus is given for behavior
2. Negative reinforcement - R- - ear pinch is removed once bumper is in mouth i.e. an unpleasant stimulus is removed for behavior
3. Positive Punishment - P+ - collar nick for failure to sit i.e. an unpleasant stimulus is given for behavior
4. Negative Punishment - P- - bumper is taken away for failure to hold i.e a pleasant stimulus is removed for behavior.

Given that (and I'm not sure that's a given), where does the type of "pressure" you guys are talking about fit in?

Quit being so cerebral and use some common sense... Forget the psych 101.... It doesn't apply here..... At least not used in the way you want to use it.....

If it was that easy to choose 1,2,3,or 4 I wouldn't have a job and 2/3 of the people in this sport wouldn't be in it.

Sorry, no easy answer.... Guess your going to have to go out and train for yourself. Try hooking up with a good training group or stop in and see a good pro train. There is where your going to get the answer to your questions along with coming up with 10,000 more questions you'll want a answer to..... 8)

Welcome to retriever training............

Angie

 

[Evan]

Thanks, that helps. Maybe I should think of "pressure" as a challange.

I still think some people use "pressure" when they more correctly should say "punishment".

Punishment can be administered in several forms. It can be through direct pressure, indirect pressure, or simply denying the dog something it clearly desires as a punitive measure. More people punish than understand the act and its consequences.

Pressure is:

1 The force of one body acting on another by the continued application of power

2 To use all one's influence (That doesn't necessarily mean physically, does it?)

We use force in dog training primarliy for one over arching reason; to change the dog's behavior. That may be to correct a misbehavior, or it may be to compel the dog's compliance, i.e. en route force to instill momentum.

First, it should be noted that the word "pressure" (or 'force') does not imply an amount. I believe many times more pressure is applied than was needed for the desired change in behavior because the trainer's emotions overcame good judgment.

Evan

 

[Aussie]

Clark,

I am cerebral too.

I have been reading the stick fetch thread. Distractions AVOIDANCE gosh the English language can be confusing.

Now let me find you a site, which I have enjoyed. I suggest reading the Iain MacDonald links.

http://www.dogstuff.info/training_index.html

 

[Aussie]

Is it allowable to cut and paste an article I also found interesting?

It is the article Mike Lardy had published in the RJ magazine Dec 05/Jan 06.

 

[KRL]

First, it should be noted that the word "pressure" (or 'force') does not imply an amount. I believe many times more pressure is applied than was needed for the desired change in behavior because the trainer's emotions overcame good judgment.

Yeah and many times not enough pressure is applied. Deciding how much pressure to use isn't as straight forward as reading a desired change in behavior. A certain amount of pressure with indirect pressure may get the correct response at the exact moment it is applied. It may not be enough pressure to get the desired response on the next situation without having to resort to indirect pressure again. It is a constant battle between too little and too much. Applying too much where the dog may overcorrect on the next encounter or under correct. Some dogs need a lot of pressure to alter there behavior on subsequent encounters. Others do not. I have worked with some dogs that anything short of a burn for a cheat or not fighting a factor was largely inneffective. Others where a burn would be way too much and light indirect pressure or attrittion was best.

Deciding the right amount of pressure must be done by evaluating the dogs total response in training and not just the response to one isolated correcttion. Becuase of this determining the "right" amount of pressure is somewhat difficult.

I think I see the wrong amount of pressure applied not because the trainers emotions overcame good judgement but because inexperienced people largely don't know what they are looking for in a response and/or don't know how to apply the right amount of pressure. They may also not understand the point of a drill or what outcome they are looking for. I see people apply too much pressure on the wrong things.

 

[Evan]

This could turn into a very long discussion without arriving at a consensus. I hope not lead the topic off course. I wanted to address the above post in particular, and both agree and disagree with its message about amounts of pressure and their relationship to future events.

Generally, the moment is what you have to deal with when making that split second decision about an amount of pressure and whether it will be a nick or burn. That's normally based on what you know of the dog and in reading an effort level at that moment.

What struck me about the tenor of your explanation of 'not enough' pressure was the stated expectation of using more, either a higher level or a burn instead of a nick (if I'm understanding you correctly), is that the collar correction is responsible for training the dog. That is to say, making a change in behavior not only now, but to assure a change for the future. I believe that can only be partially credible criteria for a trainer to operate under without counting on the e-collar to become the trainer.

What I'm saying is that the resonsibililty for long term changes in dog behavior lie with the trainer, who must establish and uphold consistent standards through constructing clear concepts and re-exposing the dog to them. This must be tempered with the understanding that they are our standards - our ideas, not the dog's. That simply means that it's unfair for us to count on an over-correction to accomplish what should have been the result of our own harder, smarter work.

The aspect I very much agree with is that too many times trainers fail to use enough pressure for common faults and end up nagging the dog instead of settling the issue and moving on. We are trying to establish and maintain standards, so when our pressure application fails to cause the behavior changes needed to do that we decrease the dog's sensitivity to stimulus, and make gray the rules that need to be black and white.

You also mentioned an aspect that is as important as the degree of pressure itself, and that is timing. The greatest advantage e-collars gave us was superior timing. That advantage is what I believe makes e-collar training superior to and more humane than any other application of pressure in dog training.

Evan

 

[taylormade]

Hi all,

I wanted to throw in my .02 on this and see if anyone else thinks of things this way. While pressure is sometimes used to mean punishment, in my mind they are two different things...and the difference is the timing of the stimulus.

For example - you ask a dog to sit. He does not. You give a negative stimulus...a correction...and ask again. This would be punishment to me. It occurs *after* the behavior, usually on a refusal (or on doing the wrong behavior).

Second example - ear pinch during force fetch. In this case, the negative stimulus (the pinch) is given *before* or *during* the behavior. You pinch th ear and release when the dog grabs the bumper. This is pressure.
So to me, simply said, punishment is a correction adminstered after a behavior for doing something wrong. Pressure is motivation administered before or during an activity in order to get the dog to do something right. They are two different things.

But hey...maybe this is just my weird way of looking at the world.

Vickie

 

[KRL]

Evan - I agree with you completely.

I do feel some dogs will respond to lower levels of pressure at the moment but may need a stronger correction for long term compliance so there was enough pressure to make it not tempting in the future. IF teaching and set-ups with the lowest possible correction to get the right response still yield a dog that does not comply the first time you need to use more correction than is neccessary for the moment of the infraction but enough to get through their thick skulls.

I have had two VERY good dogs that reguardless of the amount teaching and training needed more pressure than what was needed at the moment to get a correct response (long term). Both you had to give more of a burn on cheating no matter how slight the fade. Otherwise they would give you that cast at the moment but you could train every day for several months and they would still try to "cheat". Both dogs became very excellent dogs at fighting factors. To maitiain it you could sometimes nick but at times had to give more of a burn to cement in their brain the negative result of cheating was stronger than their desire to "give in". I could give more examples where months of training with the right level at the moment was not enough to correct the long term issue. In that case to get the right response the first time you keep moving up the pressure ladder. In my opinion of course.

Use the lowest pressure possible to get the short term response and mold long term responses. Use teaching and training as the first method to mold long term responses but if that coupled with corrections to yield the right response int he short term does not yield appropriate results then by all means up the pressure. Upping the pressure is not the first thing I choose. In fact I would give in rather than upping the pressure to a certain level. I don't need a dog to perform that well that I have to make his life miserable. My dogs are all very happy and energetic about their work and don't get many corrections.

 

[Clark Mason]

Wow so many responses - thanks for all the info.

So if I'm understanding it, at least part of the time, pressure means positive punishment. The dog does something the trainer doesn't want and the dog is "corrected" (another euphamism!?). That is, an unpleasant stimulus is given in response to an incorrect behavior in hopes of reducing the liklihood that behavior will be repeated.

Part of the time, pressure is actually the upleasant stimulus in negative reinforcement conditioning. Pinch the dogs ear until he picks up the bumper then release the pinch. That is, an unpleasant stimulus is removed for a correct behavior in hopes of increasing the liklihood that behavior will be repeated.

Part of the time (and for my $.02 worth, this is the correct usage), pressure is simply exposing the dog to unfamiliar stimuli and training him to behave as desired in the presence of those stimuli.

Hey, maybe I learned more in those Psych classes than I thought

Time to go throw some bumpers for the dog

 

[Pete]

I think Angie said it plain and simple.
Pressure = stress
Dogs can stress if not fed on time
Most Dogs will stress if you lean over them
Most dogs will stress if you put your face in theirs
These are a few of the mental stresses dogs go through. Dogs usually will give signs of stress even if subtle.
Looking out at a set up that the dog doesn't like is pressure.
Their whole life seems pressured.
when we train them we stress them.
Dogs also stress for good stuff ,,,like looking foward to sit in a blind to hunt.
Ever notiuce your dog get the squirts on a hunt.

I think my dogs are stressing me out. regaurds

 

[taylormade]

Clark,

I think you just explained it perfectly....at least for us cerebral types!

While I understand that many trainers work intuitively, and don't want to get hung up in the nomenclature of P+, P-, R+, R-, I find it helpful to understand the different ways a dog learns. It's just one more tool in the toolkit to evaluate what you are doing with a dog, what is working and what isn't with each individual, and adjust as necessary. All dogs are not the same.

Vickie

 

[Lisa Van Loo]

Wow so many responses - thanks for all the info.

So if I'm understanding it, at least part of the time, pressure means positive punishment. The dog does something the trainer doesn't want and the dog is "corrected" (another euphamism!?). That is, an unpleasant stimulus is given in response to an incorrect behavior in hopes of reducing the liklihood that behavior will be repeated.

Part of the time, pressure is actually the upleasant stimulus in negative reinforcement conditioning. Pinch the dogs ear until he picks up the bumper then release the pinch. That is, an unpleasant stimulus is removed for a correct behavior in hopes of increasing the liklihood that behavior will be repeated.

Part of the time (and for my $.02 worth, this is the correct usage), pressure is simply exposing the dog to unfamiliar stimuli and training him to behave as desired in the presence of those stimuli.

Hey, maybe I learned more in those Psych classes than I thought

Time to go throw some bumpers for the dog

Well, it's a start.

Wanna tackle indirect pressure? That's where the dog is given +P after correctly responding to the whistle sit, which was given after incorrectly performing an action. No direct link between the incorrect action and the +P.

And yet, it works.

Dogs Are Not Humans Regards,

Lisa