What is it worth

fowl hunter said:

That would be a neat study to looking into how many FC AFC over the last say 10-15 years are out of hint test bitches or field trial bitches.

Click to expand...

Everyone knows that firemen have extra time....

Forgot the 5 kids!!

Hahaha good point. I would if I wasn't computer illiterate or didn't have a two week check up for my lil man today then out to throw a few marks

But let me throw this in, if I was in market for a pup I WOULd spent the extra for a female from upper level titles like a mh or qaa but I would also buy from a young qaa bitch than spend an extra 1000 for a pup out of FC bitch when pups are crap shoots anyway. That young qaa bitch may just title.

Jacob surely you aren't saying only the top dogs that win are from FC x FC litters. Skeeter is a prime example.

Jeff Huntington said:

Hypothetical thought....

Two breedings identical except the dam on litter #1 is a MH/HRCH and the dam for litter #2 is a JH/SHR. Sire is FC/AFC

How much more is the MH dam litter worth?

Is there enough of a difference?

Click to expand...

Are the 2 bitches littermates/full siblings? If not, then all things are not equal. Is the MH out of 2 FC's or out of 2 JH's? Same question for the JH bitch, is she out of 2 FC's or out of 2 JH's?

What opportunities did the MH bitch get that the JH bitch did not?

Has either bitch produced a previous litter? If so, what were the results of those pups?

Just mixing titles (without taking a heap more info into consideration) is a losing man's path in my opinion.

fowl hunter said:

Jacob surely you aren't saying only the top dogs that win are from FC x FC litters. Skeeter is a prime example.

Click to expand...

I never said the only ones. I said they get the majority of the placements & titles. I'm more than aware of Skeeter's talents & pedigree. He's a very good marker & won't do anything dumb. If I felt my female was the right fit, I'd breed to him. As a plus, I like his owner.

fowl hunter said:

But let me throw this in, if I was in market for a pup I WOULd spent the extra for a female from upper level titles like a mh or qaa but I would also buy from a young qaa bitch than spend an extra 1000 for a pup out of FC bitch when pups are crap shoots anyway. That young qaa bitch may just title.

Click to expand...

OK, be specific on what price you would pay for a pup. It sounds like you are a $500 puppy buyer who might stretch to pay $800 for a puppy.

You are saying "MH or QAA" is 'upper level' in your mind. (You have got to be kidding.)
You also say you would not spend another $1,000 for a pup out of an FC bitch.

Do you have any idea what an achievement it is for a bitch to obtain the FC title?

Helen

I have paid 2k for a pup. I meant to say upper level hunt test.

If two females one a FC and one a young qaa female and they have similar pedigrees and are both bred to same stud. One is 3500-4k and the other is 1500-2000 I would go for the one that is out of the qaa.

fowl hunter said:

if I was in market for a pup I WOULd spent the extra for a female from upper level titles like a mh or qaa

Click to expand...

Just quoting you....

savage25xtreme said:

Just quoting you....

Click to expand...

Yes upper level hunt test versus JH. I add qaa in upper level hunt test bcause hunt test are adding some quals

stonybrook said:

Are the 2 bitches littermates/full siblings? If not, then all things are not equal. Is the MH out of 2 FC's or out of 2 JH's? Same question for the JH bitch, is she out of 2 FC's or out of 2 JH's?

What opportunities did the MH bitch get that the JH bitch did not?

Has either bitch produced a previous litter? If so, what were the results of those pups?

Just mixing titles (without taking a heap more info into consideration) is a losing man's path in my opinion.

Click to expand...

All things equal mean everything is same but the MH and JH. Just trying to isolate the potential financial difference between the MH and JH dam. I agree there is a lot more to consider.

Regarding opportunities....whose fault is that! Breeder just didn't have time to run the dog, the dog still is only a JH. You can't sit back and say or it could have should have unless just trying to justify in your own mind.

fowl hunter said:

I am sitting here looking at the catalog from last weeks trial and I bet less than 1/4 of the dogs are from FC AFc bitches.

Click to expand...

And why do you think that is?

Could it be that there aren't a lot of FC/AFC bitches?

Could it be that there aren't a lot of FC/AFC bitches being bred?

Could it be that a lot of FC/AFC bitches were spayed when young so they could get those titles?

Believe me, it is not easy to put both the FC title and the AFC title on a female -- especially so if she has not been spayed, has seasons every 7 months, and while getting those titles had 2 litters.

Helen

Helen I totally agree with what u are saying

helencalif said:

And why do you think that is?

Could it be that there aren't a lot of FC/AFC bitches?

Could it be that there aren't a lot of FC/AFC bitches being bred?

Could it be that a lot of FC/AFC bitches were spayed when young so they could get those titles?

Believe me, it is not easy to put both the FC title and the AFC title on a female -- especially so if she has not been spayed, has seasons every 7 months, and while getting those titles had 2 litters.

Helen

Click to expand...

Ok here's a newbie question, I understand the cycle of females, but if a female obtains FC and is spayed, what benefit does the owner get from investing that type of resources. I can see the trainer getting the benefit. I know I'm missing something.

By way excellent points on the FC/AFC dam....statistics, what do you want the number to be?

Jeff Huntington said:

All things equal mean everything is same but the MH and JH. Just trying to isolate the potential financial difference between the MH and JH dam. I agree there is a lot more to consider.

Regarding opportunities....whose fault is that! Breeder just didn't have time to run the dog, the dog still is only a JH. You can't sit back and say or it could have should have unless just trying to justify in your own mind.

Click to expand...

If one earned a MH and the other a JH it doesn't prove one is heads and tails better than the other. Among other things, it proves that one got the opportunity and the other didn't. Maybe one isn't as good as the other, you can't tell that just by the titles in my opinion. Maybe one got hurt, maybe one's owner lost their job, etc. There are lots of talented dogs out there that, for various reasons, may not have the titles to prove it but they could be just as valuable a breeding part as any other. Conversely, there are plenty of titled dogs out there that have no business being bred.

Jeff Huntington said:

Ok here's a newbie question, I understand the cycle of females, but if a female obtains FC and is spayed, what benefit does the owner get from investing that type of resources. I can see the trainer getting the benefit. I know I'm missing something.

By way excellent points on the FC/AFC dam....statistics, what do you want the number to be?

Click to expand...

You have to understand that not everyone is interested in breeding. Period. Many folks merely want to have the best, most accomplished dog they are able. They aren't going into it with breeding the piss out of their dog as the end result.

stonybrook said:

You have to understand that not everyone is interested in breeding. Period. Many folks merely want to have the best, most accomplished dog they are able. They aren't going into it with breeding the piss out of their dog as the end result.

Click to expand...

Point taken.

Jeff Huntington said:

Ok here's a newbie question, I understand the cycle of females, but if a female obtains FC and is spayed, what benefit does the owner get from investing that type of resources. I can see the trainer getting the benefit. I know I'm missing something.

Click to expand...

Helen is not referring to bitches who are spayed after titling. She's talking about the girls who have lost time training and trialing due to being in season and/or having puppies and then still manage to title.

So yes you were missing something, but that's ok. ;-)

Regarding what does an owner get who chooses to campaign his/her bitch rather than breeding her...who says everyone is in the game just to breed? It is not as simplistic as that.

Addition...or spayed before titling because the owner's ambition was not to develop a breeding program, but to own a competitive dog (or in this case bitch).