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Hey guys,

Was talking with a friend and we were descussing what makes a strong bitch line... Was not really sure. So what do you guys thinks makes a strong bitch line? is it how many titled dogs are on her side? is it her personally? Is it a certain dog/dogs in her pedigree? is it a mix of stuff??

Thanks a ton
Chas
 

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I think it is a mixture:

1. the bitch personally. What has she done -- does she have a title, what has her progeny done?
2. who does she have behind her... not just her sire, who are the bitches behind her sire and who are the bitches behind her dam -- what have they done, what have they produced?
Helen
 

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Strong bitch line to me is a history of bitches that have performed and produced. Multiple titled offspring --> Kweezy (10 titled offspring so far) --> MS (14 titled offspring) --> Lottie (22 titled offspring). That is the ultimate bitch line to me. Basically 3 of the best all time producing bitches in a row.
 

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A strong bitch line, that would be currently relevant, would not be Lottie or Kweezy or Chica 4 generations ago but their FC-AFC daughters or sons who produced FC-AFC daughters who in turn produced FC-AFC daughters who are having litters today.
So look at the FC-AFC bitch today who connects with Chica, Lottie , Kweezy on the bitch side via an unbroken string of FC-AFC's.
 

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A strong bitch line, that would be currently relevant, would not be Lottie or Kweezy or Chica 4 generations ago but their FC-AFC daughters or sons who produced FC-AFC daughters who in turn produced FC-AFC daughters who are having litters today.
So look at the FC-AFC bitch today who connects with Chica, Lottie , Kweezy on the bitch side via an unbroken string of FC-AFC's.
Kweezy's oldest litter will be 10 later this year, unfortunately from that litter FC-AFC Freeridin Smooth Operator was never bred, had uterine problems and was spayed. Her youngest litter is 4 and so far has 1 FC bitch and 1 AFC dog, neither of which has been bred. FC-AFC Premier's Iron Man Ozzie passed away prematurely and was taken from the breeding pool this year. We will not know about the production of her offspring for awhile.
 

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Nothing is better than seeing the prospective sire or dam in action. A friend has an AFC bitch that he bred 1 1/2 years ago whose an incredible dog and of the three pups I have followed, one is QAA one will be soon and all three are doing well in the derby. I hear the other pups are doing as well. I selected my last two pups from dams that I liked becasue of their talent (I train with the owner). Lot of nice K-9's out there in FT's and HT's if you get to watch them or have reliable sources for the info. Most (not all) but most owners I have dealt with that are hard core FT or HT folks will tell you the truth about their dogs. They are responsible breeders that will tell you the good and the bad with the intent to improve the pups through complimantory breeding. What does stump me are the dogs that aren't getting the breedings that I think should that are amazing.
 

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Oh right , sorry Ed. I lumped Kweezy in with an older generation. I'm sure there will be several future stars thanks to her.
cheers
 

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But, correct me if I'm wrong, counting letters isnt a recipe for success... Traveler's dam was untitled, right? So, knowledge is a big premium...?
 

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But, correct me if I'm wrong, counting letters isnt a recipe for success... Traveler's dam was untitled, right? So, knowledge is a big premium...?
Yupper,,, the bold addition is mine. Some of my favorite bitch lines had very few titles in them much less alone were titled themselves. But boy could they produce consistently both dogs and bitches to different studs. That takes a lot of digging.

Angie
 

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"Was talking with a friend and we were descussing what makes a strong bitch line...??"



It's up to you the breeder, or interested party, to determine the criteria for what you call "strong". If titles are important to you then that's your criteria; if size is important, then that's the criteria. The decision is yours. Bitch line refers to a geneticists or breeders term--Maternal Line. If you look at a 5 gen pedigree behind an animal it will show 16 females. However, only 5 of those females constitute the "maternal line".

As an example, Lean Mac's maternal line (bitch line) runs as follows: mother, Ebonaceae Princess WCX ***, Skookum's Sky Raider***, Wilkie's Cinderella Liberty, Keiwanna's Heidi, Tia Marie's Champagne Lady. Had you been interested in titled females you never would have been interested in Lean Mac. If my memory is still working, you can trace Lean Mac's maternal line as far back as possible and there are no titled females in it. Kinda makes a statement about the value of titles in a pedigree.

Hope that helps.
 

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"Was talking with a friend and we were descussing what makes a strong bitch line...??"



It's up to you the breeder, or interested party, to determine the criteria for what you call "strong". If titles are important to you then that's your criteria; if size is important, then that's the criteria. The decision is yours. Bitch line refers to a geneticists or breeders term--Maternal Line. If you look at a 5 gen pedigree behind an animal it will show 16 females. However, only 5 of those females constitute the "maternal line".

As an example, Lean Mac's maternal line (bitch line) runs as follows: mother, Ebonaceae Princess WCX ***, Skookum's Sky Raider***, Wilkie's Cinderella Liberty, Keiwanna's Heidi, Tia Marie's Champagne Lady. Had you been interested in titled females you never would have been interested in Lean Mac. If my memory is still working, you can trace Lean Mac's maternal line as far back as possible and there are no titled females in it. Kinda makes a statement about the value of titles in a pedigree.

Hope that helps.

better check that memory....FC AFC Air Express was bred to FC Wanapum Twiggy = FC AFC Trieven Thunderhead, who appears on his maternal side

and if you research Twiggy even further back , you will find AFC Jilly Girl came from FC AFC Penny Girl
 

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Prepotency is a great achievement.

Dales Double Hope would be an example
Interesting and a trip back in time, we bought Hope from Albert Uhalde when she was 8 or 9, Albert knew when the bitch's prime reproductive life had passed. We bred her once and she had one puppy, then lived the balance of her life in bliss as my mother's companion and house dog. Today Hope might have made it as a field trial dog but she was simply too soft to tolerate the electronic collars of the era, she was a wonderful sweet dog and good producer. Sting (FC-AFC Trumarc's Sting) probably had more desire than any dog I have ever seen with the exception of his sire FC-AFC Trumarc's Hot Pursuit.

Thanks for the reminder Nancy, many good memories of Hope and her life with my mother!
 

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better check that memory....FC AFC Air Express was bred to FC Wanapum Twiggy = FC AFC Trieven Thunderhead, who appears on his maternal side

and if you research Twiggy even further back , you will find AFC Jilly Girl came from FC AFC Penny Girl
I think you might be confusing Maternal Line (what the OP called the "Bitch Line') with Maternal side. None of the dogs you mention are in Lean Mac's Maternal Line. They are on the "Maternal Side" of his pedigree.
 

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I look to see how many bitches in a 5 generation pedigree have produced at least 1 FT titled pup. Then how many titled pups total. Also, what titles (FT/or HT) have the bitches themselves achieved?
A few days ago I put together a hypothetical breeding (included Dr Ed's Holland) that had what I believe is an exceptional bitchline. 26 out of 30 bitches have produced at least 1 FT titled pup. 180 total!!! Of course some of the greatest producing bitches of all times were present. Some multiple times.

I also like to look at what the siblings have achieved as both producers and competitors.
 

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Interesting and a trip back in time, we bought Hope from Albert Uhalde when she was 8 or 9, Albert knew when the bitch's prime reproductive life had passed. We bred her once and she had one puppy, then lived the balance of her life in bliss as my mother's companion and house dog. Today Hope might have made it as a field trial dog but she was simply too soft to tolerate the electronic collars of the era, she was a wonderful sweet dog and good producer. Sting (FC-AFC Trumarc's Sting) probably had more desire than any dog I have ever seen with the exception of his sire FC-AFC Trumarc's Hot Pursuit.

Thanks for the reminder Nancy, many good memories of Hope and her life with my mother!
That's a wonderful story Dr Ed and one I did not know. Back when I started to delve into pedigrees Hope stood out as a producer. I still look for producers. It's so true that with the collars we have today, many more females can be campaigned and end up competing in the Nationals than back then. I spoke to Albert several times about his breedings and Westwinds breedings contributed to an importance back in my lines.
 

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I look to see how many bitches in a 5 generation pedigree have produced at least 1 FT titled pup. Then how many titled pups total. Also, what titles (FT/or HT) have the bitches themselves achieved?
A few days ago I put together a hypothetical breeding (included Dr Ed's Holland) that had what I believe is an exceptional bitchline. 26 out of 30 bitches have produced at least 1 FT titled pup. 180 total!!! Of course some of the greatest producing bitches of all times were present. Some multiple times.

I also like to look at what the siblings have achieved as both producers and competitors.


It's difficult to make a point without writing a lengthy explanation. David knows what his criteria is. That's clear. To measure that criteria he looks at all the females, except one, and evaluates them accordingly. This method produces lots of titles, or lots of titled offspring, or what ever criteria you're looking for, because it has a gene pool comprised of 62 ancestors. Of that number 31 are females. But with no more information than a pedigree the characteristics David's looking for can not be allocated to any single individual, or to any group of individuals. Counting up the number of field trial titles tells you nothing. Had he counted the number of offspring who didn't earn a title he well may have lost interest in the current breeding. In a five gen pedigree, not counting the youngest gen, (or the pup you'd like to buy), but 5 generations before the pup, there are a total of 31 females. What David calls an exceptional bitch line is not a line at all. It's every single female, save one, in the entire 5 gen pedigree.

Breeding is a tough business, and not for the faint of heart. The question that a term like bitch line raises, is how can a person improve their chance of getting a pup loaded with NFC-NAFC qualities? Terms like "Maternal Line" illustrate a particular breeding program offering buyers a higher degree of predictability than the norm. In the retriever game we breed to who's hot, and buyers pick what they can afford. That's shooting in the dark.
 

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So because Lean Mac had no titled bitches on his maternal side we need not look at it anymore? Maybe we need to look at history and acknowledge the exceptions for what they are, an exception and not try to exclude common sense because of them.
 

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Breeding is a tough business, and not for the faint of heart. The question that a term like bitch line raises, is how can a person improve their chance of getting a pup loaded with NFC-NAFC qualities? Terms like "Maternal Line" illustrate a particular breeding program offering buyers a higher degree of predictability than the norm. In the retriever game we breed to who's hot, and buyers pick what they can afford. That's shooting in the dark.
It's always a crap shoot. Improve your chances-buy a well bred female and get an FC or AFC on her and breed her to multiple sires and keep a couple of puppies from each breeding. Yes, an untitled female can produce, but you don't usually find field trialers buying from untitled females unless they have produced. They usually buy from a female they have seen run with the qualities they like and then hope the sire nicks with the sire's best qualities, and it's not always the flavor of the day. As much as people want to find the quick route to consistently breeding a good litter, they have to realize it's usually in layers back, and a super talented dog is born that way, and not just trained by someone that has a good "knack".
 

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Then with my Stella, her dam Tequila Sunrise IX is a good beginning. Keilah produced multiple titled progeny from each of 3 different sires. And there are several other strong producers in that pedigree too. I'd call it multiple strong bitch & dog lines.
 
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