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I am wondering what vaccinations you use and when (weeks of age) you guys give them to your puppies before they go to their new homes? Does everyone give a 5way plus coronavirus vaccine too or do some just give the 5 way: Canine Distemper, Adenovirus Type 2, Parainfluenza, Parvovirus shot only?

Thanks,
Dan
 

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The most recent vaccination protocols from the AAHA recommend the following:

first shot at 7 weeks, combo (NO CORONA, NO LEPTO. I use Vanguard Plus 5)

second at 10 weeks

Third at 13 weeks

Fourth at 16 weeks and rabies at 16 weeks.

I tried to attach the AAHA document, but it is too large. If you would like a copy, you can PM me.

Meredith
 

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I give a NEO PAR (parvo only) at 5-6 weeks.
At 8 , I begin DHLPPC vacc (fort dodge). Has worked well for my puppies and have not had any reactions-
I know others believe other protocol but thats what I've done and its gone well for 15 years .
 

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I do 6, 9, 12, 16 weeks no lepto or corona. I stopped using corona at least 10 years ago. I then do Lepto and Lymes after 12 weeks a month apart, and rabies last.
 

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Saw some interesting data on puppy vaccinations recently... if the dam was *not* vaccinated several weeks prior to whelping, the puppies need to be vaccinated earlier because they don't have maternal antibody to protect them. If the dam was vaccinated, the pups can be vaccinated later and will not respond to early vaccination due to maternal antibody interference. In other words, assuming all pups receive adequate colostrum at whelping, the dam's antibody titers to specific diseases will influence how soon the pups need to be vaccinated against those diseases.
 

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if the dam was *not* vaccinated several weeks prior to whelping
You mean vaccinated several weeks prior to breeding-you don't vaccinate during pregnancy. I don't vaccinate every year and I have no problems with the pups because most of the core vaccines are good for years plus I use a high titer vaccine that overides the maternal antibody. You are reading some older literature.
 

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Yes, likely vaccinated prior to breeding; I do more work with cattle than dogs, where we do vaccinate prior to calving, and evidently forgot which species...

But- it's not older literature. Antibody titer of the dam is definitely related to the age pups will respond to vaccination.

2011 AAHA Vaccination guidelines:
Immunization in the Presence of Maternally Derived Antibody The mechanism whereby MDA interferes with noninfectious vaccine is different than that for infectious vaccine. Through a mechanism known as “antigen masking,” MDA covers, or “masks,” antigenic epitopes on the vaccine virus or bacteria that are necessary to elicit a protective immune response. In an effort to overcome MDA-induced interference with noninfectious vaccines, vaccine manufacturers can use a variety of methods.

Because high titers of MDA specific for protective epitopes are generally required to cause “antigen masking,” MDA interference to most bacterins is uncommon after 6–9 wk of age. However, as noted previously, two doses of a noninfectious vaccine are required to induce a protective immune response. If sufficient MDA is present to interfere with the first dose, the second dose will not immunize. Therefore, it is recommended that the earliest age for administering the first dose of a noninfectious vaccine be 12 wk.

In practice, predicting the exact age at which a puppy will first respond to administration of an infectious vaccine is difficult. MDA is the most common reason early vaccination fails to immunize. Puppies that received colostrum from an immunized dam might not respond to vaccination until 12 wk of age. In contrast, orphan puppies and puppies that were denied colostrum might respond to initial vaccination much earlier. The minimum age recommended for initial vaccination with an infectious (core) vaccine is 6 wk. Even in the absence of MDA, administration of an infectious vaccine to any dog, 6 wk of age may result in a suboptimal immune response due to age-related immunologic incompetency.

Different vaccine manufacturing methods have been successful in developing infectious vaccines that are able to overcome MDA in puppies at an earlier age. Such methods include increasing the virus titers within the product (e.g., “high titer” CPV-2 vaccine), using a more infectious virus (which often means more virulent), or administering the infectious vaccine via the IN route where the MDA is either limited or not present. Like the heterotypic measles virus (MV) vaccine, the rCDV canarypox vectored vaccine has been shown to immunize puppies 2–4 wk earlier than MLV CDV vaccines.46,47 However, neither of these vaccines can immunize puppies that have very high levels of MDA because of antigen masking.
 

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Therefore, it is recommended that the earliest age for administering the first dose of a noninfectious vaccine be 12 wk.

In practice, predicting the exact age at which a puppy will first respond to administration of an infectious vaccine is difficult. MDA is the most common reason early vaccination fails to immunize. Puppies that received colostrum from an immunized dam might not respond to vaccination until 12 wk of age. In contrast, orphan puppies and puppies that were denied colostrum might respond to initial vaccination much earlier. The minimum age recommended for initial vaccination with an infectious (core) vaccine is 6 wk. Even in the absence of MDA, administration of an infectious vaccine to any dog, 6 wk of age may result in a suboptimal immune response due to age-related immunologic incompetency.
Noninfectious vaccines are killed or inactivated, not the regular 5 way infectious core vaccines we give that override the maternal antibody. We do usually give 4 of those 3 weeks apart.
The noninfectious vaccines ARE given after 12 weeks.
"Noninfectious (Inactivated, Killed) Vaccines
The noninfectious (inactivated, killed) vaccines include killed
viral (e.g., rabies virus [RV], canine influenza virus [CIV], and
canine coronavirus [CCoV]), whole killed cell bacterins (certain
Lyme, Leptospira), bacterial subunit (recombinant outer surface protein A [OspA] Lyme, and conventional subunit Leptospira outer
membrane component [OMC] vaccines), a cellular antigen extract
of the Bordetella bronchiseptica (Bb) vaccine, and Western
diamondback rattlesnake avenomous vaccine (Table 1). As the
name “noninfectious” implies, these vaccines do not infect the
host to produce new antigen. Thus, they must contain adequate
amounts of antigen to immunize. Because the antigen alone
may not be adequate to immunize a dog, many of the noninfectious
vaccines must also contain adjuvant.
 

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In practice, predicting the exact age at which a puppy will first respond to administration of an infectious vaccine is difficult. MDA is the most common reason early vaccination fails to immunize. Puppies that received colostrum from an immunized dam might not respond to vaccination until 12 wk of age. In contrast, orphan puppies and puppies that were denied colostrum might respond to initial vaccination much earlier.

I'm not really sure what you're taking issue with. My point is simply that, as mentioned in the AAHA 2011 guidelines quoted above, maternal antibody DOES interfere to varying degrees with a pup's response to a given vaccine, and maternal titers influence when the litter needs to be vaccinated. A pup out of a dam who hasn't left her home property in 5 years and was last vaccinated 3 years prior, likely needs vaccinations sooner in life than a pup out of a dam who trials every other weekend and was vaccinated prior to breeding.
 

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In practice, predicting the exact age at which a puppy will first respond to administration of an infectious vaccine is difficult. MDA is the most common reason early vaccination fails to immunize. Puppies that received colostrum from an immunized dam might not respond to vaccination until 12 wk of age. In contrast, orphan puppies and puppies that were denied colostrum might respond to initial vaccination much earlier.

I'm not really sure what you're taking issue with. My point is simply that, as mentioned in the AAHA 2011 guidelines quoted above, maternal antibody DOES interfere to varying degrees with a pup's response to a given vaccine, and maternal titers influence when the litter needs to be vaccinated. A pup out of a dam who hasn't left her home property in 5 years and was last vaccinated 3 years prior, likely needs vaccinations sooner in life than a pup out of a dam who trials every other weekend and was vaccinated prior to breeding.
So, are you going to titer them or guess or go with a protocol? Theoretically the AAHA is correct. We don't know when the they start producing antibody or when exactly the maternal antibody disappears. I prefer not to have an unanticipated window of non- protection. The high titer vaccines block the maternal antibody from interfering with the antibody production but there is some response from the pup. Thats why we give multiple vaccinations spaced 3 weeks apart and we don't consider them immune until past 16 weeks, but some vaccines (manufacturers) are somewhat better than others in eliciting that antibody response and research papers have been done testing that response in various vaccines. Now they are more evenly eliciting that response but it wasn't always that way in the past as some were much better than others. I don't vaccinate my females before every breeding because they should have sufficient titers because studies of titers have shown they are protective for years. Possibly if you boostered them before every pregnancy you should make sure the pups receive extended vaccinations. I start mine at 6 weeks because field puppy buyers get them out sooner than they should and they are not fully protected. I have not changed my protocol for over 30 years other than I went from the 2nd at 9 weeks instead of 8 weeks allowing for a better antibody response. I also have not encountered Parvo.
 
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I start mine at 6 weeks because field puppy buyers get them out sooner than they should and they are not fully protected. I have not changed my protocol for over 30 years other than I went from the 2nd at 9 weeks instead of 8 weeks allowing for a better antibody response. I also have not encountered Parvo.
I follow the same regimen as ErinsEdge but don't do Lepto or Lyme because of the area in which I live.

With bitches who are to be bred, I may check their files and vaccinate them if they are going to be having a litter within a few months if it has been a while, but no way do we do them every year like we used to. My five year old may never have another 5 way in her entire life.
 

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Originally Posted by ErinsEdge
I start mine at 6 weeks because field puppy buyers get them out sooner than they should and they are not fully protected. I have not changed my protocol for over 30 years other than I went from the 2nd at 9 weeks instead of 8 weeks allowing for a better antibody response. I also have not encountered Parvo.
I follow the same regimen as ErinsEdge but don't do Lepto or Lyme because of the area in which I live.

With bitches who are to be bred, I may check their files and vaccinate them if they are going to be having a litter within a few months if it has been a while, but no way do we do them every year like we used to. My five year old may never have another 5 way in her entire life.
My vet does things a little differently. He likes to give the first vaccination to little pups as late as he can because of the possible interference with the bitch's colostrum. He thinks the later the better the chance of getting an immune response from the puppy. He says it takes 48 hours to get an immune response so if I'm shipping the pups out at 8 weeks he wants to vaccinate at 7.5 weeks. Works for me as I can get the health certificates done then also.

I don't let pups go before 8 weeks normally. I think they're a little stronger, more mentally ready to leave at 8 weeks than at 7 weeks.
 

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My vet does things a little differently. He likes to give the first vaccination to little pups as late as he can because of the possible interference with the bitch's colostrum. He thinks the later the better the chance of getting an immune response from the puppy. He says it takes 48 hours to get an immune response so if I'm shipping the pups out at 8 weeks he wants to vaccinate at 7.5 weeks. Works for me as I can get the health certificates done then also.

I don't let pups go before 8 weeks normally. I think they're a little stronger, more mentally ready to leave at 8 weeks than at 7 weeks.
The only problem is vaccines suppress immunity for about a week.
. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1255540/?page=6
 
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My vet does things a little differently. He likes to give the first vaccination to little pups as late as he can because of the possible interference with the bitch's colostrum.
I may be sounding like a simple simon here, but I thought we were vaccinating puppies because we don't know when the immunization from mom's colostrum wears off? I know a lot of people think we are building resistance by giving multiple vaccinations but that is not the case.

Tell me more about interfering with the bitch's colostrum? This is a new one to me. I didn't know a vaccination could/would override that?

And Nancy, I thought DL's book was hard to get through. That page you linked to made me cross eyed. :razz: I'm going with your one sentence summation. :)
 

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I may be sounding like a simple simon here, but I thought we were vaccinating puppies because we don't know when the immunization from mom's colostrum wears off? I know a lot of people think we are building resistance by giving multiple vaccinations but that is not the case.

Tell me more about interfering with the bitch's colostrum? This is a new one to me. I didn't know a vaccination could/would override that?

And Nancy, I thought DL's book was hard to get through. That page you linked to made me cross eyed. :razz: I'm going with your one sentence summation. :)
Read the summary on p 159 in the middle of the page, 2nd column, and look at the graph on 158. I always read the intro and then summary first. Also, if I remember correctly it takes 2 weeks to develop antibodies from a vaccine and there is a much better response after the second vaccination. The first is weak in comparison. One of the reasons I give fewer vaccines is the affect they have on the lymphocytes for a small period of time, and although they say it may not be enough to contract disease, I have had older dogs doing fine until I give them a vaccination and boom, they are gone. This is IMHO only.
 

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Tell me more about interfering with the bitch's colostrum?
The remaining immunity from the colostrum is supposed to interfere with the immunity of the vaccine, accordoing to my repro vet. So my he likes to give the first shots later rather than sooner.

He did mention that out in the Matanuska Valley where there are supposed to be some puppy mills that they liked to give the first shots at 6 weeks and then once a week until 9 weeks and then 12 and 16. I don't know anyone who does this.

Nancy, he did say it was 48 hours for an immune response. Next time I see him I'll double check. But he's done 4 litters for me and he's been consistent in what he's done. And I haven't heard of a pup getting parvo or anything.
 

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Nancy, he did say it was 48 hours for an immune response. Next time I see him I'll double check. But he's done 4 litters for me and he's been consistent in what he's done. And I haven't heard of a pup getting parvo or anything.
I think we are talking about the same thing. The start of the response is a rising curve until the peak which then drops off if another vaccination isn't given where a secondary response leads to a higher peak.
 

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Response time depends on the vaccine... and there's a difference between an immune response and an immune response that results in protective levels of circulating antibody.

Maternal antibody from colostrum binds to epitopes (sites) on the antigen (ie virus in vaccine) that would elicit a protective immune response (puppy producing antibody). Maternal antibody also causes release of factors that prevent the puppy's immune system from producing antibody. The principle behind some of these high-titer vaccines is to put more antigen in the pup's system than the maternal antibody can handle, so that the pup's immune system - antigen presenting cells, T-cells, etc - actually gets to encounter the antigen. If maternal antibody levels are extremely high, even a high-titer vaccine can't overwhelm maternal antibody. Not a bad thing... it means the pup is well protected against the real disease while he has that maternal antibody in his system.

I don't have an opinion either way on titers vs just vaccinating and was simply stating interesting food for thought. I've never drawn blood for titers on my dogs and would elect to vaccinate litters prior to leaving for their new homes. Even if I suspected it wasn't going to do anything for the pup, can you imagine the reaction if you told a puppy buyer on arrival that you didn't vaccinate any of the pups?
 

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..............................

One of the reasons I give fewer vaccines is the affect they have on the lymphocytes for a small period of time, and although they say it may not be enough to contract disease, I have had older dogs doing fine until I give them a vaccination and boom, they are gone. This is IMHO only.
Interesting thread, this last post ...gives me more reason to continue not to vaccinate my 11 year old Golden Retriever, Ranger. Honestly, doing so has worried me for some time now so stopped with our first Golden (who is gone now) in his older age as well. My vet seems to agree..that helps. Insists on rabies every three years though and unless one's dog has cancer or some life threatening disease, it is a State Law.

Rabies worries me due to wild animal population incidence here. If my dog is bitten or exposed, they would quaranteen and if he should bite someone, and not be up to date on his rabies, state law says he would be euthanized. Titer is not good enough per state regulations. I certainly do not want my old guy quaranteened, he would never understand it and of course, the other alternative, should he bite someone is unbearable.

From what I have read, his rabies vaccine should be good for his entire life, not having to vaccinate every three years. Seems that a correct protocol could be decided on per scientific research. Sometimes if feels that it's about the bottom line, not the animals health. :(

Judy
 
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