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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Yesterday a friend of mine asked which of my female dogs has the better pedigree. How do you decide what makes one pedigree better than another? How many generations do you look at? What is more important Parent's titles verses grandparent's titles. What about titles on (full and half) siblings that do not show up in a pedigree? I'm thinking about how well the top and bottom match up. Do some dogs being in the pedigree top others?

Terri
 

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If taught by the right person/persons I would pay to go to the 3 day seminar that teaches that.
 

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Nothing like experience... ;) Researching your pedigree's and knowing the statistics of the individuals along with their siblings helps. That's just the start. Knowing how the individuals work together or in combinations is the real key.

Angie
 

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...How do you decide what makes one pedigree better than another? How many generations do you look at? What is more important Parent's titles verses grandparent's titles. What about titles on (full and half) siblings that do not show up in a pedigree? ... Do some dogs being in the pedigree top others?

Terri
Your questions are more complex than can be answered well here. First, define "better". Know what you're looking for, that is; what are your priorities with respect to conformation, temperament, drive, etc. "Trainability" can mean different things to different trainers, as few seem to do really well with all temperaments. Think about the dogs you've had your best success with, and stay with that type of disposition if you can.

Looking back several generations is important. Characteristics, physical and temperament, become "set" when blood lines are kept tight. So when you look at several generations, determine whether the lines are tight or if there appears to be lots of "outbreeding". The more outbreeding you see, the more variation you'll find from from litter to litter, even from one pup to the next within the same litter. I try to find close lineage on both sides of a litter - Both dogs have a few common grandparents or great grandparents in the mix.

Also know that some dogs are better producers than others. Certain names in a pedigree do trump others. There are some great dogs out there that just don't produce great puppies. Others consistently produce champions. So don't just look at a given dog's accomplishments - look at the accomplishments of the puppies he/she has produced.

Titles are the only legit proof of a dog's characteristics. A dog without an advanced title may have great potential, but you have no evidence of that without seeing titles on the pedigree. I look for a wide range of titles on a pedigree too. In my opinion, that shows a well balanced temperament and good trainability. If I see a dog with lots of FCs, NFCs, but no other performance title, I don't know if that's a nicely balanced disposition, or a maniac that will demand a constant firm hand and a hot collar. Conversely, when I see a dog with advanced field titles, maybe some advanced obedience, tracking, etc., I get a picture of a dog that is intelligent, has goood drive and focus, but also is able to contain itself, and has a gentler side. I personally prefer a dog that's physically tough but moderately soft tempered.

Clear as mud? I probably did a good job of not answering you. Genetics isn't a simple subject.

Jeff
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Nothing like experience... ;) Researching your pedigree's and knowing the statistics of the individuals along with their siblings helps. That's just the start. Knowing how the individuals work together or in combinations is the real key.

Angie
How does one get started?


Terri
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Your questions are more complex than can be answered well here. First, define "better". Know what you're looking for, that is; what are your priorities with respect to conformation, temperament, drive, etc. "Trainability" can mean different things to different trainers, as few seem to do really well with all temperaments. Think about the dogs you've had your best success with, and stay with that type of disposition if you can.

Looking back several generations is important. Characteristics, physical and temperament, become "set" when blood lines are kept tight. So when you look at several generations, determine whether the lines are tight or if there appears to be lots of "outbreeding". The more outbreeding you see, the more variation you'll find from from litter to litter, even from one pup to the next within the same litter. I try to find close lineage on both sides of a litter - Both dogs have a few common grandparents or great grandparents in the mix.

Also know that some dogs are better producers than others. Certain names in a pedigree do trump others. There are some great dogs out there that just don't produce great puppies. Others consistently produce champions. So don't just look at a given dog's accomplishments - look at the accomplishments of the puppies he/she has produced.

Titles are the only legit proof of a dog's characteristics. A dog without an advanced title may have great potential, but you have no evidence of that without seeing titles on the pedigree. I look for a wide range of titles on a pedigree too. In my opinion, that shows a well balanced temperament and good trainability. If I see a dog with lots of FCs, NFCs, but no other performance title, I don't know if that's a nicely balanced disposition, or a maniac that will demand a constant firm hand and a hot collar. Conversely, when I see a dog with advanced field titles, maybe some advanced obedience, tracking, etc., I get a picture of a dog that is intelligent, has goood drive and focus, but also is able to contain itself, and has a gentler side. I personally prefer a dog that's physically tough but moderately soft tempered.

Clear as mud? I probably did a good job of not answering you. Genetics isn't a simple subject.

Jeff
I was just asked this question by a friend at a hunt test. He is impressed with the titles he sees on entry express for my 4 year old's parents (he has told me this in the past). He always ask me what I intend to do with her - field test, more master test, or breeding. Since she is my first Labrador I have been mostly learning about the breed and running hunt test. I did acquire another puppy who is related to my first Labrador on the sires side, but different on a dam's side. So he was just interested to see if she was better than the first and if so what are my plans for her.

Terri
 

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To me the best pedigree is the one that matches best trait wise( temperment/style/tractability/intelligence). We breed for intelligence and tractability. If one is an EIC careeier than breed to a clear. If there is some known genetic defect than I would consider that as well.

Honestly, I do not think it more complex than that. Unlike some I do not go back generations on the pedigree...more concerned about the two to be breed than past history.

Bill
 

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the one with the best pedigree is the one who's pups sell fastest for the mostest!
 

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Terri,
A great tool is a subscription to www.gooddoginfo.com There you will be able to see many of the dogs in your pedigree, and who was bred to who, and what they produced in the way of performance titling.
 

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The more outbreeding you see, the more variation you'll find from from litter to litter, even from one pup to the next within the same litter. I try to find close lineage on both sides of a litter - Both dogs have a few common grandparents or great grandparents in the mix.

Jeff
Interesting......."more"....variation in....working/field (marking, desire, water attitude, memory) traits with outcrossing?

Not sure inbreeding is worth the health/reproduction risk?

In theory I agree. But.
 

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Honestly, I do not think it more complex than that. Unlike some I do not go back generations on the pedigree...more concerned about the two to be breed than past history.

Bill
Bill, genetics are recessive.

If that weren't a fact, quality breeders would have eradicated hip and elbow dysplaysia, PRA, and all the other common hereditary defects years ago. Defects still present themselves in more than 15% of Labradors tested, even when there are no defects in any of the stock 3, 4, 5 generatons back.

If you minimize the research and planning, you perpetuate defects in the breed, and, do your puppy buyers and the breed as a whole a real disservice.

Jeff
 

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Interesting......."more"....variation in....working/field (marking, desire, water attitude, memory) traits with outcrossing?

Not sure inbreeding is worth the health/reproduction risk?

In theory I agree. But.
There's more to the whole dog than the field work characteristics you cite.

It isn't tight breeding itself that causes health issues. It's tight breeding with defects in the lineage. If you breed tight, the defects tend to "set" just as much as the good qualities that you want to keep. That's why health screening is vitally important, and why it needs to be carefully researched many generations back in the pedigree.

Jeff
 

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To me the best pedigree is the one that matches best trait wise( temperment/style/tractability/intelligence). We breed for intelligence and tractability. If one is an EIC careeier than breed to a clear. If there is some known genetic defect than I would consider that as well.

Honestly, I do not think it more complex than that. Unlike some I do not go back generations on the pedigree...more concerned about the two to be breed than past history.

Bill
If one is an EIC carrier - don't breed it to anything. Science still doesn't have definitive answers as to what causes EIC. Why would you pass that along in a breeding? Breeding to a dog that is "clear" only means that some of the litter will be unaffected, but all the puppies can carry that gene and pass it along when they are bred. That's exactly what I meant about perpetuating a problem.

Also, please note that tractability is not an instinct or genetic characteristic. Tractability is a trained behavior, and only a reflection of the dog's overall trainability.

Jeff
 

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Jeff, While I respect your good intentions in having no genetic anomalies in breeding I disagree with the practical application.There have been numerous discussions on qualities that may be bred out by singling out EIC carriers.A carrier does not cause an affected dog.I know I own one that I got before there was a test or much known about EIC.They have not eradicated HD either have they even with OFA.There is much more to genetics than the simple layman that I am can comprehend.I agree with breeding selectively.I still want the best bred FT lines (with health clearances known) in the dogs I own because that's what gives the most consistant competitive and birdy dogs.
 

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If one is an EIC carrier - don't breed it to anything. Science still doesn't have definitive answers as to what causes EIC. Why would you pass that along in a breeding? Breeding to a dog that is "clear" only means that some of the litter will be unaffected, but all the puppies can carry that gene and pass it along when they are bred. That's exactly what I meant about perpetuating a problem.

Also, please note that tractability is not an instinct or genetic characteristic. Tractability is a trained behavior, and only a reflection of the dog's overall trainability.

Jeff
 

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Bill, genetics are recessive.

If that weren't a fact, quality breeders would have eradicated hip and elbow dysplaysia, PRA, and all the other common hereditary defects years ago. Defects still present themselves in more than 15% of Labradors tested, even when there are no defects in any of the stock 3, 4, 5 generatons back.

If you minimize the research and planning, you perpetuate defects in the breed, and, do your puppy buyers and the breed as a whole a real disservice.

Jeff
I don't mean to insult you, and I don't dispute what you say about various genetic defects, but I think you are definitely insulting Bill's intellegence on the subject. I know that as very serious breeders of high quality field trial dogs, Bill and Sarita do their homework. Also I don't know what you mean by the oversimplifed statement that "genetics are recessive", obviously recessive genes are a part of genetics, but a much bigger part are the dominant genes. As to your point about not minimizing reasearch and planning, I'm sure that we all, including Bill agree with you on that.

John
 

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If one is an EIC carrier - don't breed it to anything. Science still doesn't have definitive answers as to what causes EIC. Why would you pass that along in a breeding? Breeding to a dog that is "clear" only means that some of the litter will be unaffected, but all the puppies can carry that gene and pass it along when they are bred. That's exactly what I meant about perpetuating a problem.

Also, please note that tractability is not an instinct or genetic characteristic. Tractability is a trained behavior, and only a reflection of the dog's overall trainability.

Jeff
You don't believe temperment including tractability is an inhereted trait? I sure do. It is amazing how many little behavoral traits get passed on from generation to generation. Little things like the bouncy spinning tight hunt on a mark that my dog's sire Vinny was famous for, Yoda did the exact same thing. Firebreathers tend to come out of firebreathing parents, and tractable dogs come out of tractable parents.

John
 

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If one is an EIC carrier - don't breed it to anything. Science still doesn't have definitive answers as to what causes EIC. Why would you pass that along in a breeding? Breeding to a dog that is "clear" only means that some of the litter will be unaffected, but all the puppies can carry that gene and pass it along when they are bred. That's exactly what I meant about perpetuating a problem.

Also, please note that tractability is not an instinct or genetic characteristic. Tractability is a trained behavior, and only a reflection of the dog's overall trainability.

Jeff
Science (specifically the scientists that came up with the EIC test) advocate using the test and results as a tool and do NOT recommend culling carriers from the breeding pool. As far as the rest of what you write, I think you are going to be in the minority, to say the least.

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