RetrieverTraining.Net - the RTF banner

Which hip evaluator do you prefer?

1 - 20 of 22 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
109 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I have a litter of pups on the ground and have done all the clearances (hips, elbows, eyes, thyroid, and CNM). For the Hip’s I use a local vet and send them to OFA. I had a perspective puppy buyer all but call me a fool for using OFA rather than Penn Hip. His logic was that he had a “good OFA” that scored poorly on the Penn Hip system so the Penn hip is better. I’m trying to be open minded but that’s not making much sense with me. Please answer the survey and give your reasons why you prefer one or the other. Thanks in advance.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,636 Posts
For "marketing" purposes I do OFA hips and elbows on all my dogs. However, I prefer the PennHip because the statistics on its predictive value appear more convincing and I tend to believe that it is less subject to variation based on the expertise of the vet doing the x-ray in getting marginal dogs to pass. I am not convinced that the use of "objective" measurements of hip displacement are better than the consensus opinion of experienced specialists.

Edit: The fact that I can do PennHip at 4-6 months with reasonable confidence in the result is an added bonus.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
5,856 Posts
YardleyLabs said:
For "marketing" purposes I do OFA hips and elbows on all my dogs. However, I prefer the PennHip because the statistics on its predictive value appear more convincing and I tend to believe that it is less subject to variation based on the expertise of the vet doing the x-ray in getting marginal dogs to pass. I am not convinced that the use of "objective" measurements of hip displacement are better than the consensus opinion of experienced specialists.

Edit: The fact that I can do PennHip at 4-6 months with reasonable confidence in the result is an added bonus.
That's why I use PennHip for my personal dogs that I would consider putting into a competition enviornment. I can evaluate them early.

Plus the OFA elvauaters may not have had a cup of Java on the way to the office and they could possibly not make a good objective call.

Just my opinion.....

Angie
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,319 Posts
I perform initial Penn hip (and preliminary elbows, for what they are worth at a young age) for peace of mind. Also as general anaesthetic is required, I like to hear how they recover. Less health issues the bettter to worry about.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,287 Posts
I prefer Penn Hip. I use OFA only because it is what most puppy buyers are familiar with...
You should ask Keith Stroyan his opinion of Penn Hip. He has perhaps the most dramatic explanation of why Penn Hip is the best method.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
139 Posts
If you needed a doctor to tell you what was wrong with you would you rather his opinion or would you like the mathmatical scientific method. My momma always said math don't lie. That is why I trust penn hip. That and I have a friend that had a dysplastic rating from OFA resent the same xray in and got a good.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9 Posts
OFA vs. PennHIP

I posted this information on another forum that was discussion the pros and cons of OFA and PennHIP. I did some research before deciding on whether to use the PennHIP method my vet suggested and found the following. I am happy to share this information to help anyone decide if PennHIP is right for you and your dog. I apologize in advance for the length of this post.

I routinely have two hip evaluations performed on my dogs. One set of x-rays is submitted to Germany and the other to PennHIP. I am all for any procedure that takes the subjectivity out of evaluating x-rays (OFA) and replaces it with objective evaluations (PennHIP).

The University of Pennsylvania Hip Improvement Program (PennHIP) was based on the work done by Drs. Gail K. Smith, Darryl Biery, and Thomas Gregor. Dr. Smith is a Veterinary Orthopedic Surgeon at the University of Pennsylvania, holds a PhD in Engineering, and was the lead in the development of this technique. I was not able to find much information regarding the background of the other two doctors.

The development of PennHIP involved several disciplines including biomechanics, clinical medicine, radiology, population genetics, and associated statistical analysis. The principle behind PennHIP, as a diagnostic tool, is that hip laxity is a measurable component that can be used to predict a dog's susceptibility to develop canine hip dysplasia (CHD) and degenerative joint disease (DJD) later in life. By applying the physical principles and biomechanical testing of the hip, PennHIP stress-radiographic methods can accurately measure hip joint laxity in dogs as young as 16 weeks. PennHIP requires that x-rays be submitted for evaluation regardless of whether the owner wants to or not. This differs from OFA in that the owner can decide whether to submit the x-rays for evaluation.

The primary difference in the PennHIP radiographic and diagnostic method and OFA is in the positioning of the dog during the x-ray procedure. Dr. Smith believes that a measurable amount of hip laxity is inherent in all dogs. The PennHIP method was developed to quantify the relative degree of femoral head displacement from the hip joint visible in a compression distraction view. This view requires the dog to be under deep sedation or general anesthesia and incorporates two views of the dog in the supine position and one view of the hips at a neutral position. Dr. Smith also believes the compression/distraction stress radiographic technique is 2.5 times more sensitive in quantifying hip joint laxity than the standard hip-extended method (OFA).

PennHIP's range of laxity is quantified on a Distraction Index (DI) scale from zero to 1. Hips approaching zero are extremely tight and hips approaching 1 are extremely lax and 100 percent out of the joint. The PennHIP method provides a "distraction index (DI)" score for each animal that is evaluated. Hips that show very low laxity (low DI score) are considered tight hips that are highly unlikely to have evidence of DJD.

As stated by PennHIP, their primary objective is to provide reliable, quantitative information to dog breeders that will allow them to make breeding decisions that can reduce the incidence of DJD and CHD in their lines. It is important to understand that PennHIP is not evaluating the animal in the familiar “pass/fail” manner. A given DI score does not exclude that animal from breeding consideration. What the DI offers the breeder is an understanding of where their individual animal ranks relative to other members of its breed (or the overall dog population if fewer than 20 bred members have been evaluated) with respect to hip joint laxity.

The guiding principle evolving from the PennHIP research suggests, “tighter hips are better hips and breeding tight hips to tight hips is the best approach rather than trying to breed looser hips to tight hips.” Is PennHIP 100% accurate, absolutely not. However, I personally believe it is the best method available today simply because none of the other evaluation methods has undergone testing through controlled scientific testing.

In my opinion there are a couple of reasons that prevent PennHIP from being utilized by breeders and owners more than it is right now. The first is the cost. The cost for PennHIP is significantly higher than OFA. The cost differential is because OFA requires a single x-ray of one position while PennHIP that requires three x-rays of the dog’s hips. I have found that the vet community has not established a standard fee when performing PennHIP x-rays. I live in central Nebraska used to drive to Iowa State University to get my dogs PennHIP. Even though there are vets certified for PennHIP in both Lincoln and Omaha, I found it is cheaper to drive to Ames, IA than use the vets in Nebraska. There is now a vet in north-central Nebraska that is certified to perform PennHIP and the last time I was charged $200 for the exam, sedation, x-rays, and evaluation fee. The PennHIP web site can help you locate certified vets. The best thing to do is once you get some names is to contact them individually to see what they charge.

I also believe that people have more of a comfort level with OFA than PennHIP. Several years ago, I contacted both PennHip and OFA regarding the number of dogs in their databases. PennHIP responded and told me that as of September 2000 there were 29,479 dogs in their database. OFA sent me an E-mail stating there was 825,000 dogs their database. Please note that I did not inquiry as to the number of breed categories and/or the total number of dogs within any given breed category. I am sure updated information is available and PennHIP would be more than willing to share this data if asked.

I think that PennHIP is still being viewed as the “new kid on the block” by some people. These same individuals want to look at more information to see if the PennHIP predictions regarding laxity and CHD are in true. There is a web site for PennHIP that has some very good information along with some frequently asked Q&A. The site address is: www.vet.upenn.edu/ResearchCenters/pennhip I have a list of references regarding PennHIP if you are interested. It is too long to post here, but if you send me a PM, I will send you the list.

When I was doing research on PennHIP, I came across the following interview with Dr. Gail Smith, University of Pennsylvania. The interview occurred in June 1995. I am posting a few of the questions and Dr. Smith's responses. You can see the entire interview at http://bullmastiffinfo.tripod.com/pennhip1.html I hope this information is of interest to you.

Question: Did that paper (referring to a 1989 research paper on examination of human infant hips where Dr. Corley with OFA raises the question that the examination procedure in the infant may actually cause a stable hip to become unstable) present any actual data documenting real harm done by the technique?

Dr. Smith: For the PennHIP procedure, the hips are placed in a neutral (stance-phase) position and a small harmless distractive force is applied to displace the femoral heads laterally from the acetabula. I am not aware of any such reports (studies that document harmful effects) and I am confident that if such documentation existed, it would have already been brought to the attention of the breeding public by the OFA. One should not lose sight of the fact that the OFA position is itself a stress-radiographic method that to my knowledge has not undergone safety testing. Also, it must be recognized that the PennHIP procedure specifies that an OFA radiograph be made for each compression and distraction view made (for a total of three views). After many studies and much close scrutiny of our data, we have no evidence to suggest that the procedure is any more harmful than the OFA stress-radiographic procedure.

Question: Do you think that the PennHIP procedure might cause an otherwise healthy adult dog, without CHD (canine hip dysplasia), to go on to develop joint disease? What about 4-6 month old puppies whose skeletal systems are not yet matured?

Dr. Smith: No. Not a single tight-hipped dog, irrespective of breed and age of first evaluation, has yet developed signs of DJD (degenerative joint disease) regardless of number of distraction procedures done throughout its lifetime. Longest follow-up is 9 years.

Question: What about a dog that has CHD, could it be worsened by the PennHIP exam?

Dr. Smith: Dogs with extant, clinically apparent disease can suffer transient discomfort stemming from any manipulation of the hip even routine orthopedic examinations.

Question: To the best of your knowledge, has anyone ever reported to you or to ICG (International Canine Genetics) that their dog developed hip problems as a result of the PennHIP procedure? If yes, how many such reports in how many years?

Dr. Smith: Of the more than 6,000 dogs evaluated thus far using the PennHIP procedure (3 radiographic views including the OFA view), fewer than 6 owners have reported that they thought the process may have cause temporary discomfort. No long-term complications have been reported. Could a dog that has no clinical symptoms of CHD, but has loose hips be at risk for harm from the exam? Dogs presenting without clinical signs are not made clinically painful in the short term by the evaluation procedure. In the long term, loose-hipped dogs having multiple PennHIP evaluations over their life appear to be no more at risk for developing osteoarthritis than those evaluated for the first time as an adult.

Question: In your opinion, is the PennHIP method any more or less risky to the dog than the positioning done for an OFA x-ray?

Dr. Smith: In my opinion, the distraction procedure is less painful than the OFA procedure. I feel neither procedure has measurable risk for ill effects to the dog.

Wildflugel
__________________
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,461 Posts
I have recently seen the opposite experience with a friend of mine's dog. She bought the dog as a 3 year old for breeding purposes with a passing PENN HIP. She had OFA x-rays taken of the dog. It's Hips came back fair with bad elbows. A note was sent to OFA to find out if previous x-rays had ever been sent in on the dog by the seller. They had. THe pervious results were one fair hip, one dysplastic hip, and two bad elbows. So the seller covered up bad hips by using PENN HIP and commited a fraud on top of it. Of course the new x-rays improved the situation, but with results like that who would ever breed this dog?

I think both OFA and Penn Hip are better tools when used together. However, I pull OFA x-rays on my dogs.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,718 Posts
I've done OFA but not PennHip. I guess I never had anyone argue with me over it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9 Posts
JusticeDog:

For clarification sake, PennHIP does not "pass" or "fail" the dog's hips, instead PennHIP issues a distraction index (DI) score. The score ranges from 0.0 (extremely tight hips) to 1.0 (extremely loose hips). What the DI offers the breeder is an understanding of where their individual animal ranks relative to other members of its breed (or the overall dog population if fewer than 20 bred members have been evaluated) with respect to hip joint laxity.

The evaluation form contains the following statement: "Please note that the PennHIP DI is a measure of hip joint laxity. It does not allude to a "passing" or "failing" hip score and therefore will not necessarily equate to a particular OFA rating."

The results of the evaluation for each hip are listed on the evaluation report. If either hip shows signs of osteoarthritis (DJD), it is noted as either "mild, moderate, or severe" or "none" if the hips are clear. If hip dysplasia is confirmed from the radiographs, this information is also stated in the report.

Unfortunately PennHIP's database is not accessible to the public (like OFA), maybe some day. But for now, each owner receives a copy of the evaluation report. Breeders or sellers that advertise their dogs as having PennHIP evaluations should provide a copy of the report upon request. Of course, individuals can claim that their dogs have been PennHIP evaluated, but if they do not provide a copy of the evaluation report, I would be very leery of their claims. If anyone brags that his or her dog(s) has received a "passing" PennHIP evaluation that should raise a red flag!

Wildflugel
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,287 Posts
Unfortunately PennHIP's database is not accessible to the public (like OFA), maybe some day.
I was told a couple of days ago by someone who recently had their dog Penn Hip'd at the U. of Penn that this will become reality in a couple of months... Not the whole database right away, but the last 2 years worth and then they will keep adding the older stuff.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,461 Posts
Wildflugel said:
JusticeDog:

For clarification sake, PennHIP does not "pass" or "fail" the dog's hips, instead PennHIP issues a distraction index (DI) score. The score ranges from 0.0 (extremely tight hips) to 1.0 (extremely loose hips). What the DI offers the breeder is an understanding of where their individual animal ranks relative to other members of its breed (or the overall dog population if fewer than 20 bred members have been evaluated) with respect to hip joint laxity.

The evaluation form contains the following statement: "Please note that the PennHIP DI is a measure of hip joint laxity. It does not allude to a "passing" or "failing" hip score and therefore will not necessarily equate to a particular OFA rating."

The results of the evaluation for each hip are listed on the evaluation report. If either hip shows signs of osteoarthritis (DJD), it is noted as either "mild, moderate, or severe" or "none" if the hips are clear. If hip dysplasia is confirmed from the radiographs, this information is also stated in the report.

Unfortunately PennHIP's database is not accessible to the public (like OFA), maybe some day. But for now, each owner receives a copy of the evaluation report. Breeders or sellers that advertise their dogs as having PennHIP evaluations should provide a copy of the report upon request. Of course, individuals can claim that their dogs have been PennHIP evaluated, but if they do not provide a copy of the evaluation report, I would be very leery of their claims. If anyone brags that his or her dog(s) has received a "passing" PennHIP evaluation that should raise a red flag!

Wildflugel
Whle I understand that there is no pass or fail, excuse my terminology, I think you would agree that there are hips that fall within a certain % of laxity that you would not want to breed. Or, do you disagree?

My point was, just because a Penn Hip score looks good does not mean anything. That's why I believe that if you do a PENN Hip, I personally would also do an OFA x-ray.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9 Posts
Last Frontier Labs:

That is great news. There is a box on the form that accompanies the radiographs that states whether the owner approves the release of the results of the evaluation. Every owner has the opportunity to decide whether or not to release the information, I always checked the box. I have never really understood why PennHIP did not publishs results for those individuals that approved the release of their evaluations.

Wildflugel
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,636 Posts
PennHip generally suggests that dogs being bred fall in the top 50% for the breed on the assumption that the objective of breeding is to improve the breed. I normally look for dogs to be at least 70th percentile (top 30%) unless there are some compelling reasons why that particular dog needs to be kept in the gene pool. With a D.I. of .3 or less, PennHip results suggest there is almost no likelihood that the dog will develop dysplasia later in life. I have seen dogs with D.I. values of .3 classified as OFA excellent and as OFA good. I have also seen dogs with D.I. values of greater than .4 classified as OFA Excellent.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9 Posts
JusticeDog:

I hope you do not think I am trying to be argumentative. There are still so few individuals who are familiar with PennHIP, I just wanted to make sure you understood what their evaluation means.

I totally agree with you that just because a dog might receive a low DI score (rating towards 0.0) it should automatically be bred. I use this information as one more tool at my disposal in which to make breeding decisions. That is why I continue to submit x-rays to Germany for evaluation. I want all the information I can get my hands on before deciding on a proposed breeding.

PennHIP does not make specific breeding recommendations; this decision is left up to the individual breeder. As a minimum, they propose that breeding dogs be selected from individuals that have hip laxity in the tightest half of the breed. They state that by implementing selection based on passive hip laxity, the breed average DI over the years can be expected to move toward tighter hip configuration. The PennHIP database permits adjustments to reflect this movement. The average laxity and range of laxity for a particular breed will change over time. The PennHIP evaluation is still "new" (as compared to OFA) so it remains to be seen if their predictions will ring true.

When I first stated using PennHIP there were not enough drahthaars/GWP in the breed specific database so my dogs were compared to the general dog population. However, sufficient numbers of drahthaars/GWP have now been evaluated to develop a breed specific database.

Wildflugel
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,461 Posts
Wildflugel said:
JusticeDog:

I hope you do not think I am trying to be argumentative. There are still so few individuals who are familiar with PennHIP, I just wanted to make sure you understood what their evaluation means.

I totally agree with you that just because a dog might receive a low DI score (rating towards 0.0) it should automatically be bred. I use this information as one more tool at my disposal in which to make breeding decisions. That is why I continue to submit x-rays to Germany for evaluation. I want all the information I can get my hands before deciding on a proposed breeding.

PennHIP does not make specific breeding recommendations; this decision is left up to the individual breeder. As a minimum, they propose that breeding dogs be selected from individuals that have hip laxity in the tightest half of the breed. They state that by implementing selection based on passive hip laxity, the breed average DI over the years can be expected to move toward tight him configuration. The PennHIP database permits adjustments to reflect this movement. The average laxity and range of laxity for a particular breed will change over time. The PennHIP evaluation is still "new" (as compared to OFA) so it remains to be seen if their predictions will ring true.

When I first stated using PennHIP there were not enough drahthaars/GWP in the breed specific database so my dogs were compared to the general dog population. However, sufficient numbers of drahthaars/GWP have now been evaluated to develop a breed specific database.

Wildflugel
I didn't think that you were being argumentative at all, but thanks foryour concern & education!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
606 Posts
I dont know. I have only done OFA. I am lucky to find a vet who does OFA!! Where would a find a vet who does Penn hip, and actually knows what they are doing? I live in Northeastern PA. USA. any ideas?? Maria
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9 Posts
Maria:

A vet must be trained and certified in order to take PennHIP x-rays. After my vet returned from training he had to take a certain number of x-rays and submit them for evaluation for his final test. I was lucky in that he used a lot of my dogs for his test x-rays and did not charge me!

You can obtain the name and address of a certified PennHIP veterinarian in your geographic area from PennHIP's web site (www.pennhip.org) Go to the bottom of the navigation bar and double click on "Locate a PennHIP Vet."

Good luck!

Wildflugel
 
1 - 20 of 22 Posts
Top