[TxFig]

I posted this poll on another board. Posting here to see if there is a difference (and how dramtic) the results are with this crowd.

Definitions:

AOF- area of fall

Keyhole blind - a blind where the dog has very little margin for error due to a constriction in the path (usually cover). The absolute path to the bird is clear.


(Darn - a poll where people could select more than 1 option would be really nice here).

 

[Guest]

Although field trials today have ventured far from the intended "ordinary days shoot" I still look to that for clarification some times.
I try to imagine a scenario in hunting in which it could occur. I use that as one criteria for trick or not.
The only choice listed that I think I consider a trick is the "in throw". Would a responsible hunter shoot at a bird flying in towards his hunting partners?
Any one of the other choices might be undesirable as they may go against certain training practices. However, if thats the case, we might need to open our minds and expand our training skills as I can see any of these other scenarios possibly happening while in an ordinary days shoot..

 

[Guest]

I was relieved to see that 9 other people voted none of the above...

 

[AmiableLabs]

I also voted "None of the Above."

If people think these are tricks, perhaps "trick" needs to be defined?

Just because a concept is demanding, does not mean it is a "trick."

 

[Miriam Wade]

I voted none of the above, but am wondering why anyone would see the honor dog retrieving the last bird down of a triple as a trick? I've run these & felt they were (fun &) fair. The honor dog has to be in a position to mark the birds & is at no less of an advantage in doing so than the working dog.

M

 

[AmiableLabs]

Oops. Me misunderstood.

 

[Angie B]

None of the above.

It's all in relation to the other factors involved.

Angie

 

[TxFig]

Although field trials today have ventured far from the intended "ordinary days shoot" I still look to that for clarification some times.
I try to imagine a scenario in hunting in which it could occur. I use that as one criteria for trick or not.
The only choice listed that I think I consider a trick is the "in throw". Would a responsible hunter shoot at a bird flying in towards his hunting partners?

Just trying to understand what you're saying.

Are you talking about an "at you throw", where the bird is thrown right at you? You don't have situations where the birds are coming straight at you when you shoot when out hunting for real?


Note and "at you" throw wasn't one of the choices I listed - quite frankly, I didn't think anyone would think of that as a trick.

 

[Mike Hutzler]

Tricks

I pick none of the above. I also think it is a reward for the honor dog to get to make a retrieve. Most of the time he sits there and does what he is supposed to do and doesn't get the retrieve.

 

[TxFig]

I voted none of the above, but am wondering why anyone would see the honor dog retrieving the last bird down of a triple as a trick? I've run these & felt they were (fun &) fair. The honor dog has to be in a position to mark the birds & is at no less of an advantage in doing so than the working dog.

Fwiw, I've only done that test once as a judge. We made the last bird down so "enticing" that, while we didn't declare which one the HD had to pick up, there was zero doubt which it would be. 8)

 

[Gerard Rozas]

the honor dog retrieving the last bird down of a triple as a trick

Dogs to not think as we do. Yes we can train dogs to remember what birds THEY have picked up - and to avoid returning to those birds. We don't teach dogs to remember what birds other dogs have retrieved.

So as long as returning to an old fall is grounds for elimination - I would classify this as a trick. IMHO - all this does is force the handler to select out the order of birds retrieved - and makes the last bird down a poision bird.

 

[TxFig]

I also voted "None of the Above."

If people think these are tricks, perhaps "trick" needs to be defined?

Just because a concept is demanding, does not mean it is a "trick."

For the record, I also voted "none of the above".


That's kind of the reason I posted the poll on the other site (HRC forum). The HRC book specifically says that "tests designed to trick dogs is not allowed". That's a good thing.

The PROBLEM is that what is and isn't a trick is not defined anywhere.

Thus alot of things which I consider to be perfectly legitimate, even if viewed PURELY from a hunter's standpoint, are quite often called a "trick".


Now that's not to say that there aren't somethings I do believe are tricks.
* Throwing 2 birds simultaneously, but in different areas (ie. the dog can't see the bird to mark it).

* Shooting a gun in 1 area of the field, but throwing the bird in another.

* Throw a mark, with a string tied to the bird, then drug away to a different location (this is legitimate hunting issue, but not in the context of the way tests are judged).

 

[Patrick Johndrow]

the honor dog retrieving the last bird down of a triple as a trick

Dogs to not think as we do. Yes we can train dogs to remember what birds THEY have picked up - and to avoid returning to those birds. We don't teach dogs to remember what birds other dogs have retrieved.

So as long as returning to an old fall is grounds for elimination - I would classify this as a trick. IMHO - all this does is force the handler to select out the order of birds retrieved - and makes the last bird down a poision bird.

Have to agree...if it is not a trick it is just plain dumb.

 

[TxFig]

the honor dog retrieving the last bird down of a triple as a trick

Dogs to not think as we do. Yes we can train dogs to remember what birds THEY have picked up - and to avoid returning to those birds. We don't teach dogs to remember what birds other dogs have retrieved.

Then we're training them to do the wrong thing. It also means we (the testing group of folks) have lost sight of what honoring is really supposed to be.

The majority of people I hunt with are also members of my local retriever club. Which means, pretty much all of them have dogs too. Which means when we hunt together, there is virtually always at least 2 dogs in the blind. Now when we shoot, assuming we're lucky enough to actually knock down more than 1 bird, we're not going to have 1 dog do all of the work. Instead, my dog will pick up my birds and your dog will pick up your birds.

That means that every single retrieve has to be selected. That's real hunting. And that's what these events are supposed to be evaluating - how acceptable is this dog in a real hunting situation? Frankly, if my buddy's dog keeps running out and picking up my birds, my buddy isn't going to be bringing his dog hunting with me next time.

 

[Gerard Rozas]

Well Chris - we are not talking about "TRICK HUNTING" we are talking about trick testing. And it clearly states in the Standard for Retriever Field Trials that the judge can not dictate the order birds are retrieved in a test.

And what you are doing is dictating the order.

BTW - I have only seen this done once in a FT - and thank God the test was scrapped.

 

[badbullgator]

The majority of people I hunt with are also members of my local retriever club. Which means, pretty much all of them have dogs too. Which means when we hunt together, there is virtually always at least 2 dogs in the blind. Now when we shoot, assuming we're lucky enough to actually knock down more than 1 bird, we're not going to have 1 dog do all of the work. Instead, my dog will pick up my birds and your dog will pick up your birds.

That means that every single retrieve has to be selected. That's real hunting. And that's what these events are supposed to be evaluating - how acceptable is this dog in a real hunting situation? Frankly, if my buddy's dog keeps running out and picking up my birds, my buddy isn't going to be bringing his dog hunting with me next time.
_________________

Yep!!

 

[Guest]

the honor dog retrieving the last bird down of a triple as a trick

Dogs to not think as we do. Yes we can train dogs to remember what birds THEY have picked up - and to avoid returning to those birds. We don't teach dogs to remember what birds other dogs have retrieved.

So as long as returning to an old fall is grounds for elimination - I would classify this as a trick. IMHO - all this does is force the handler to select out the order of birds retrieved - and makes the last bird down a poision bird.

I've done this once before in a hunt test (I can't imagine you'd ever do it in a field trial?). I was worried about it. But the dogs DO get it. It's pretty wild...

-Kristie

 

[Lisa Van Loo]

That means that every single retrieve has to be selected. That's real hunting. And that's what these events are supposed to be evaluating - how acceptable is this dog in a real hunting situation?

No, we are looking to see which dogs have the skills that would make them good hunting partners. Subtle, but distinct difference.

The way I hunt (boat blind), my dog and my partner's dog do not see the birds go down. They only know which side of the boat ol' Daffy landed on. Every mark is a blind. I can do that hunting. However, if I handle on every mark in a FT or HT, I will be O.U.T.

Marking tests should test marking. The test as described is not a marking test, and can quickly fall into having to handle on one or more of the remaining marks, especilly with a high-desire, outstanding marking dog...bye bye, thanks for the donation.

Lisa

 

[Guest]

I also voted "None of the Above."

If people think these are tricks, perhaps "trick" needs to be defined?

Just because a concept is demanding, does not mean it is a "trick."

Now that's not to say that there aren't somethings I do believe are tricks.
* Throwing 2 birds simultaneously, but in different areas (ie. the dog can't see the bird to mark it).

* Shooting a gun in 1 area of the field, but throwing the bird in another.

* Throw a mark, with a string tied to the bird, then drug away to a different location (this is legitimate hunting issue, but not in the context of the way tests are judged).

I have a really hard time with the 2nd trick you listed... AND shooting a 120 yard bird from the line really gets on my nerves, esp if visibility is bad. The 3rd thing doesn't bother me because it could easily happen with a cripple flyer. I guess it depends on how far. But I've run this scenario twice in a test and really enjoyed watching the dogs work it out.

I've seen the two simultaneous birds (but dog could see them both at once) and it made me sick to my stomach, but the dogs did great at it. It was pretty amazing and I was pleasantly surprised. But in general, it could be a trick and I don't like it...

-K

 

[Guest]

That means that every single retrieve has to be selected. That's real hunting. And that's what these events are supposed to be evaluating - how acceptable is this dog in a real hunting situation?

(snip)Marking tests should test marking. The test as described is not a marking test, and can quickly fall into having to handle on one or more of the remaining marks, especilly with a high-desire, outstanding marking dog...bye bye, thanks for the donation.

Lisa

Not that it's my favorite type of test, but how is this test not a marking test?

-K