[bgregory]

Last series, prior work identical.

Dog A, a golden, is honest but ends up behind gun.
Dog B, a black lab, cheats but knows where the bird is.


(Used a golden for dog A so that everyone knows this is purely hypothetical...a golden would have nailed it after a long swim.)

Please forgive the artwork.
Butch Gregory

 

[Franco]

(Used a golden for dog A so that everyone knows this is purely hypothetical...a golden would have nailed it after a long swim.)

Please forgive the artwork.
Butch Gregory

:lol:

Butch, are you sure it wasn't the other way around? Lab got wet and Golden had the more postive mark?
:lol:

I'd have to go with the animal that had the better mark! In this case it would be the Lab. Remember, we aren't judging lines but marking. However, we all know that there will be at least four dogs that have great lines with positive marks. Generally, those dogs will be black! :wink:

Good to see you posting!

 

[badbullgator]

This has to be a trick question

 

[Doug Main]

Who was judging?

 

[Franco]

As far as which dog wins, it would go to the female handler with the best figure!

How's things in T-Town. Bama should have a very good Baseball Team this year!

 

[bgregory]

"Who was judging?"

I won't go there...too many sensitive people here.

Mr. Booty, where have you been? It's been crowded around here his spring.

Butch

 

[Greg Seddon]

I have to agree with Frank.

"I'd have to go with the animal that had the better mark! we aren't judging lines but marking"

 

[Franco]

Mr. Booty, where have you been? It's been crowded around here his spring.

Butch

Butch, the Am started today, why aren't you there? Crowded, that's waht you get for having three full trials in one month! :wink:

I'd love to be up there but that 7 hour drive each way is too much driving!

 

[bgregory]

Butch, the Am started today, why aren't you there? Crowded, that's waht you get for having three full trials in one month!

Gotta work sometime...oops, am I at work?

 

[Vicki Worthington]

Who Wins?

According to the Standard Procedure:

"Failure to enter either rough cover, water, ice, mud or any other situation involving unpleasant or difficult going for the dog after having been ordered to do so several times is sufficient cause to justify elimination from the stake"

The poll does not state whether it is an all-age stake or a minor stake. I would give more leeway to a minor stake than an all-age stake. But...

While Dog A appeared to "cheat with a purpose", the dog failed to enter water--avoiding the hazards of the test. They are water marks after all.

If a dog failed to enter the water on more than one mark, it would appear to be grounds for elimination. If the dog only failed to enter the water on a single mark, it would be noted as a fault.

Behind the gun is not a sin to me. The area of the fall is an area that encompasses the gun, the immediate area behind the gun, and the exact spot where the bird fell. To navigate the water, go to the area of the fall and find the bird would indicate a very good mark to me. One that might be surpassed only by a dog that enters the water & goes directly to the bird itself. A dog that avoids the water (unless the mark was unusually "cheaty" in that the water was very unobvious to the dog) has failed to navigate the obstacles in the test. That's why it's called cheating.

Lines that deviate for the sole purpose of avoiding hazards in all-age tests SHOULD be judged. While not solely grounds for elimination unless it's a case of stumbling on the bird from way, way out of the area, it IS an issue that must be judged. In all-age stakes, simply finding the bird is insufficient in many cases. How you get to the bird DOES matter.

 

[alaskan peakes]

Thank you Vicki!

 

[bgregory]

Thanks Vicki for you discussion that is well put. As a novice, this is exactly why I started the post.

I myself would need to see the set up to know if dog B is really avoiding a hazard. On the other hand, suppose dog A is an all-age dog that didn't really mark the bird and gets in the water only because the handler points him toward the water because thats what he has been trained to do and then runs out to the gun because he knows he will find a bird somewhere in the vicinity?

On paper, dog B marked the bird better. This is a marking test. As a matter of further discussion, was the dog "ordered" to get in the water or was he "ordered" to get the bird the fastest and cleanest way possible. If I am in a hunting situation, I get 10 minutes more hunting in my day rather than watch a dog swim.

Butch Gregory

 

[Vicki Worthington]

Who Wins?

One of the most important things to remember as a judge is to judge what you see, not what you believe the dog to be thinking. That said, all-age stakes are a combination of trained and natural abilities. For the dog to rely on training by taking the initial direction to go into the water, continuing on to the area of the fall, whether marked by the gunner or remembered by the dog (how can you really tell?) is a good performance. It is a combination of natural marking ability that has been enhanced by training. Not unlike people who hone their skills--skills that are natural, like athleticism, to a really superb performance when tested.

None of us really know what a dog is thinking. We may THINK we know, but unless the dog can actually tell us, we really don't--we just assume based upon other behavior patterns. In a competition, we can never know if the dog is just going where it was pointed, knows where to go, remembers and has marked the area of the fall, or is just going toward the gunner and hoping to find it because that's where they normally find birds. We, as judges, must judge what we actually see, not what we think is in the dog's head.

There is always the age-old argument that the dog that cheated the water did so because he could get there faster. But...in an all-age stake, the trained attributes must play a factor. Point in fact, the dog that got into the water, navigated the hazard, and still began its hunt in the area of the fall is a well-trained dog. The dog that ran around may need to be better-schooled. I may think many things about the performance, but the fact is that one dog avoided the water.

Only in the Derby Stake should trained attributes play a very small role in evaluating the performance of the dogs. Since dogs are not expected to handle, and in fact are eliminated for being handled, some leeway should be considered for those dogs that get the marks well, but fail to exhibit trained attributes. But...and it's a very big but...the dog that takes all the hazards, goes directly to the bird, retrieves it without playing around with the bird, and returns promptly to its handler to deliver and make another retrieve looks alot better than the dog that runs around the water, gets out early, avoids cover or changes of cover/rough terrain, but still gets the birds.

 

[J. Box]

Not to hijack the thread but , Vicki said that in derbies that the trained attributes should play a very small role in evaluating a dog .


Why are DTS marks so popular in derbies ? I'm gettin ready to run my first and I know this is gonna be a problem with my pup if I can't tighten him up a bunch in the next month . Just wonderin ........


Bank runnin regards ....J.

 

[Paul Rainbolt]

A dog who doesnt get wet on the water marks would have a hard time winning if i were judging. It appears the lab went way out of his way to avoid the water. Very unusual for a lab i think you may have your dogs mixed up.

 

[bgregory]

"Why are DTS marks so popular in derbies?"

My opinion, again from a novice, is that the dogs are so well bred these days that if you don't have factors like down the shore marks where training (staying in the water), like Vicki says, helps the dogs, then it is hard as judges to get any seperation. You have to set up test so that if a dog avoids factors and still goes straight to the birds, you know he has marked it.

Vicki's post certainly illustrates the benefits of training and a dogs courage to negotiate factors but I still think that in judging a "mark", the dog that sets up a hunt closest to the fall, regardless of line, has the better mark. And marking is of primary importance. I heard it talked about before on this forum that there was a national champion at one time that hardly got wet. Not sure if that is true.

With that said, I want the dog that has the better line. He is going to stay out of trouble more than the other.

 

[Canman]

"Failure to enter either rough cover, water, ice, mud or any other situation involving unpleasant or difficult going for the dog after having been ordered to do so several times is sufficient cause to justify elimination from the stake"

The above quote is from the "Serious Fault" of the supplement to the standard. The key words are "having been ordered to do so," which implies the dog is being handled, either on the mark or a blind. I don't think this applies to the scenerio shown.

3. Reluctance to enter rough cover, water, ice, mud or other situations involving unpleasant "going" for the dog.

The above is listed in the "Moderate Faults" section of the supplement. This certainly could be applied to dog B.

In reality, dog A would probably win if it was a derby, dog B would probably win in an all-age stake.

 

[Jim Pickering]

I cannot imagine even some of the weakest judges around today setting up the test illustrated as the final series at a field trial. That is, unless this was a derby stake and this was the only water available to the derby judges, but why would any judge set up a cheaty mark and not judges the cheat?

It looks to me like Dog B clearly avoided the water, once by the point of water flared away from the short gun, and then let the wind push it until it was running directly down wind which just happened to put it down wind of the long gun where upon it broke down and started hunting to hunt.

Seriously, assuming the diagrams are fairly accurate and the throw is a good one of maybe 30 feet then both dogs arrived in the area of the fall with about 20 feet of the other. On a 250-yard mark that is not enough for me to put one dog ahead of the other. Both dog had good intelligent hunts and both worked to a point down wind and winded the bird.

The difference and significant in my book is that dog A exhibited the courage not only to take the water but also to stay in the water as it paralleled the inviting shore to its right. Clearly dog A is the winner, unless Bruce got it wrong and dog B is the Golden. :wink:

 

[john fallon]

A dog who doesnt get wet on the water marks would have a hard time winning if i were judging.

Me too!
john

 

[J. Box]

I agree john , but is a bird that lands on land a water mark ?