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How would you handle the situation?

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Discussion Starter #1
This is a followup to Steeeve's post about his training day yesterday.

Amateur trained, senior level bitch running a triple in a training day environment. After watching the first two marks go down, she doesn't look over at the go bird and misses the mark.
 

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Discussion Starter #2
I'd call no-bird and try again.

It's obvious she can count to two... time to learn to count to three and no better place to do that than a training day environment. Marking is the most important asset to a good hunt test or trial dog. It's imperative that amateur trainers utilize the opportunity to run marks whenever possible.

I shoulda put an option to vote for "Either B or C but definitely not A, only a big dummy would do that." hehe.

Shayne
 

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I agree you should call a no-bird. If you're planning to run a triple you need to follow thru and run a triple. If you've got the help use them. There are times when you're training that a problem might pop up that needs to be addressed then and there rather than continue with what you had planned to work on, but I don't think that this is one of those situations. So I'd have to vote pick 'em up and try again.

Andy
 
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My plan...

Make sure she's picked out all three guns before you run the test. If not, have guns holler to make sure she sees them. Don't signal for any bird until you know she's turned to and focused on the gun.

If you're doing exposed guns, this part is easy.

If you're doing hidden guns, have them quack, holler or whatever if she doesn't move with you when you turn.

Depending on the actual dog, I might just have the gobird station holler and throw a 2nd bird, leaving the first two birds down -- otherwise it could make it even more difficult for her to concentrate on the last bird if she sees the first two over again. Part of this decision also depends on the complexity of the test, placement of the birds, the gobird's role in the test. But I'd more than likely just have the gun holler and throw a 2nd bird. She never saw it anyway... So it's not like she's seeing it twice. And there isn't enough delay there to warrant picking up the whole test.

I didn't answer the poll because I don't think, for me, there's one answer that solves the problem for every dog.

-Kristie
 

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I followed the last string and this one with interest. I can see the logic in both positions, especially considering that the dog is an intermediate level dog, why not run it that way. I am close (not there yet) where I may have to make such a decision. He is not doing blinds at that distance. He marks well and is doing triples. Most days I train alone, and I expect that other than the professionals here that is the case with most of us. I train with a group on Sundays, that is the day that I have the most help available and can run triples. There were times that the Sunday training day had a low of 3 people show up. I also train with a handful on Wednesday nights. There were times when only 2 people showed for the Wednesday training day. I would not waste the resources of having the ability to run a triple. Specifically, the reason I would pick them up would be less about whether the exercise or set-up would be good for the dog but more because I wouldn?t want to waste the resources, having 3 throwers, that were available.

Just My Thoughts

Joe M.
 
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Joe M. said:
(snip)Specifically, the reason I would pick them up would be less about whether the exercise or set-up would be good for the dog but more because I wouldn?t want to waste the resources, having 3 throwers, that were available.

Just My Thoughts

Joe M.
I'm having a hard time understanding how having resources would be more important than what's good for the dog... ?? Isn't every day of training about what's good for the dog? Maybe I misunderstood this statement... Let me know.

Not related to what Joe said: We very rarely throw a full triple or quad in training. Almost every day of training is multiples broken down into singles, double singles, double doubles run as if we were doing the multiple (so mechanics and bird order are the same). We only run triples when we've been working on a concept for a period of time and want to make sure they get it. So when we do run a triple, it would be important that we did run it as a triple, whether we chose to pick all three birds up or just have the go-bird station throw another bird.

ps -- it's a lot harder for someone training alone to follow-up on mechanical problems and dog issues where gun help, noise, etc. is needed... that's for sure. If I was training alone and the dog missed a gobird, I'd make sure I had the gun set up visibly, that I pointed the guns out, etc. Really it comes down to the same stuff, I suppose, except that you have less leverage when you're training by yourself so you probably need to be extra careful.

-Kristie
 

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A few questions for Steve-UT first. Where the guns visible (whitecoats) ?Did you show all the stations before the birds were thrown ? Did she refuse to pull off the second bird despite your best efforts to have her do so ? Any voice commands at the line ? Run many "field" triples with her before ?

If the short answer to all of these is YES, then MY (me, myself, and I) bottomline response would be that she was blowing Steve's line handling efforts off and was content on doing it her way. I WOULDN"T HAVE ALLOWED IT.


Chris
 

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Ya...I'm with them.

Pick it all up and start again...including the walk from the holding blind.

Depending on the rest of the set up, I think I might come up "on-line" to the go bird so she was looking that way from the start.

I'd let her turn her head for the first two and use "body english" to try and keep her focused on the mark that was being thrown without getting ahead of OR behind the action. (That happens when you repeat throws sometimes...)

I think I'd also note what made the first two marks "more desireable" or made the go bird "less desireable" for the dog and address that in future training.

I'd note any echos that may or may not have prevented the dog from evening knowing a third (or fourth) gun was in the field. Maybe a gunshot drowned out a duck call (Of course, not your duck call, Shayne) if you were training for Hunt Tests.

We, like Kristie and others I think, seldom throw full out trips or quads for the dogs. We do lots of singles, some doubles, and bird-in-mouth triples or quads, but not many of the entire set. MOST dogs learn to count real well and the memory develops pretty quickly...

Again, I agree with Kristie and would like to stress it is GENERALLY counter-productive to make a training decision based on availability of resources. Better to get the proper training in and catch the "big triple/quad" next time. It is much more difficult, IMHDAO (ubp, K2 Inc.), to prevent a less than desireable habit, than it is to cure it.

Good Luck!

Joe S.
 

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kristie said:
Joe M. said:
(snip)Specifically, the reason I would pick them up would be less about whether the exercise or set-up would be good for the dog but more because I wouldn?t want to waste the resources, having 3 throwers, that were available.

Just My Thoughts

Joe M.
I'm having a hard time understanding how having resources would be more important than what's good for the dog... ?? Isn't every day of training about what's good for the dog? Maybe I misunderstood this statement... Let me know.

-Kristie

The point I was trying to make was the double and blind may be a good exercise for the dog but the availability of 3 throwers(resources) are more valuable at that time. There will be many more times that I will have 2 throwers and can put out a blind than have the availability of the 3rd thrower.

Joe M.
 

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"WWLD?" Now how would I know....Oops, WWYD? Well, since this a "Senior" level Dawg anyways and as *I* don't subscribe to the "train at the next level" method I would have done the same. Run the double and handle on the blind just like in SH level work. After all this senario happens in actual testing all the time why not run it in training? And who's kidding who we all know there are many, many "marks" that are actually "lined" anyways??? Oh, it rears it's Ugly Head....Say it isn't so??? Hehe :shock: :twisted: :shock:
Dave
PS Ultimately Steve is the only one that can farely (or is that fairly Jerry?) :lol: answer this question but it is a cool hypo!
________
MIRAMAR COLLECTIVE SUMMERLAND CA
 

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First of all I have a confession. :twisted: The situation was pure fiction. after the first thread I wanted to see if I could come up with a situation where this would be acceptable and to provoke (Shayne) more thought on the subject.
I think Chris picked out the most important question here, were all the guns visable and were they pointed out to the dog. If so it would be a big mistake to not pickup and re throw.
The point I was trying to make was that I was training a senior level dog and the setup turned out ot be a pretty decent senior level scenerio even though there was a third gun in the field, so why not run it as a senior?
I see by the other posts that I failed to do so. If you want to run a double and a blind, set it up that way.
I concede to you Shreck (errr ahhh I mean Shayne) oh mighty green one.
:) :)
 

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here's .02 from a different perspective. I don't run trials, i don't have birdboys (i do have an 11 yr old daughter whose getting in pretty good shape helping dad) In a realistic screnario for my own training situations it would have been shorter marks with the longest being in the 150-175 range. I would probably have ignored the go bird. left the dog at the line and walked out to pick up the first mark myself, sent the dog for the second and then rerun the triple possibly changing the order of the marks so that he wasn't drawn to the old fall site.
I'm a big fan of non-retrieves and use them just about anytime i see something i don't like in one of my set-ups.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
kristie said:
Joe M. said:
(snip)Specifically, the reason I would pick them up would be less about whether the exercise or set-up would be good for the dog but more because I wouldn’t want to waste the resources, having 3 throwers, that were available.

Just My Thoughts

Joe M.
I'm having a hard time understanding how having resources would be more important than what's good for the dog... ?? Isn't every day of training about what's good for the dog? Maybe I misunderstood this statement... Let me know.

Not related to what Joe said: We very rarely throw a full triple or quad in training. Almost every day of training is multiples broken down into singles, double singles, double doubles run as if we were doing the multiple (so mechanics and bird order are the same). We only run triples when we've been working on a concept for a period of time and want to make sure they get it. So when we do run a triple, it would be important that we did run it as a triple, whether we chose to pick all three birds up or just have the go-bird station throw another bird.

ps -- it's a lot harder for someone training alone to follow-up on mechanical problems and dog issues where gun help, noise, etc. is needed... that's for sure. If I was training alone and the dog missed a gobird, I'd make sure I had the gun set up visibly, that I pointed the guns out, etc. Really it comes down to the same stuff, I suppose, except that you have less leverage when you're training by yourself so you probably need to be extra careful.

-Kristie
Obviously running a triple was the most important thing for the dog... since that was the original intent of the handler. IF running a double with a blind were most important, handler could have set that up or run it as a double, then the single, then set up a meaningful blind.

I agree that the situation shouldn't have happened in the first place. In training, i always signal for my own birds. If your training hunt test stuff, the mark will begin with a duck call or a hey hey to clue the dog in on the mark.

I'd say that most amateur 1-2 dog guys who train alone a lot, have a skewed ratio of blinds to marks. To many blinds, not enough marks. Blinds are easier to set up, require less resources, and are more fun to run.

There's not one answer for every dog. But for this dog, who needs more exposure to triples and doesn't have bird boys at his disposal, running the go-bird as a blind is definitely not the answer.

Shayne
 

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I'd have them pick up the birds and rethrow. If it is a short go bird, then it probably won't be a meaningful blind. If it is a long go bird, then I'm probably looking to do secondary selection or short memory birds, and in either case will need the long go bird.
 

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There was a time when I'd run the unseen mark as a blind.
Not anymore.

I would want to know why the dog didn't see the third mark and fix that.
In our situation all thrower stations are hidden.

Option 2 or 3 could be used. or I might stop and call for the unseen leg again with some attention getting movement or voice. Run it as a single and then attempt the mulitple again.

We will use another dog now to run the blind on any marks that are messed up, when the bird is across a creek or in water.

Waynep
 

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Discussion Starter #16
I won, i won, i shot the bb-gun... you lost, you lost, you ate tomato sauce!!! :lol:

The public has spoken and deemed Steeeeeeve a biggo hippie dummy!!! Now, send that dog and $50 to Joe Schmoe before you really screw her up. :p

Shayne - Tryin to remember why we thought that saying was cool in the 2nd grade.
 

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As a couple of others have posted, I would pick up and start over. During my walk back to the holding blind to start over, I would develop my training strategy, starting with WHY did the dog fail to pick out that third mark?

Then, back to the line, where I control everything. Point out each gun station, que with "mark", then signal for EACH mark separately. If my dog doesn't turn for that last mark, I will MAKE her turn, because while I was at the holding blind, I put her collar back on her, and there is a short piece of check cord dangling from it. This is TRAINING. I would turn her physically, remind her "mark", and not signal for that last mark to be thrown until my dog signaled to ME that she remembered ("Oh, yeah, there's another gun station out there"). Noise at the gun station helps.

Every dog is different. If this was, indeed a senior-level dog, not ready for triples, then WHY run her on the marks as a triple in the first place? If the dog had the triples concept but had never run this big a test, run the memory bird as a single, followed by the other two as a double, then run it back as a triple i.e., a teaching triple.

Lisa
 

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What do we read as the reason the dog missed this mark?

If the dog had a mark it wanted and refused to move with me, resulting in not seeing the go bird, we might be picking them up, re-throwing them one at a time, me manually repositioning the dog to see the GB, picking up the GB as a single, and calling it a series.

What does THIS dog need right now?
 

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Just don't do what I did this past weekend, send my dog when I was not sure he saw the marks..... Bad news when that happen's..... :(
 
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