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What would you do:

  • A) call dog back to next series - still in

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  • B) make dog repeat honor and pick up dumper

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • C) other....please explain

    Votes: 0 0.0%
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Discussion Starter #1
Scenario:

Senior NAHRA test water series. Triple mark with blind and a "double honor". Test starts off with a "bye dog" honoring with its handler on the shore about 20 feet from the blind. Dog in contention comes to line and gets in blind with handler and judges. When handler is ready and dog is set, calling is heard from behind and a "dump bird" splashes out directly in front of the bye dog, and at a sharp angle, but reasonably close to the contention dog.

Judges call for bye dog to pick up dumper. Bye dog delivers dumper bird to handler while contention dog, fresh at the line, honors. Triple mark is then thrown out in water. Bye dog honors while judges call for "dog" and the dog in contention now is sent to pick up the triple. As contention dog leaves the line on the first retrieve, bye dog is excused.

After picking up the three marks, the contention dog is handled on a blind from the same point of origin. The handler and contention dog then slide left down the shore in place of the previous bye dog. They now pick up the dumper bird after the next dog in contention comes to the line and sits in the blind. After getting the dumper, the dog sits and watches the triple mark thrown for the new contention dog. As soon as new contention dog is sent, the honor dog is excused with handler and so-on.

Situation:

A "fire breathing" young bitch needs one more qualification for her title. She comes to line with handler and honors for the dumper bird perfectly. She cleanly hammers out the triple and does a super job on the blind. The judges tell her "nice work" and have her slide down the shoreline to become the honor dog while a fresh team comes to the line.

This time, the first dumper bird lands a bit off to the left - angled even further from the new contention dog and a bit of an angle entry for the firebreather. She remains steady on the dumper until the handler is directed by the judges to have her pick up the bird, less than 10 feet away. On command, firebreather does a kamikaze leap and lets out the most god-awful cries upon hitting the water. She's struck a waterlogged tree trunk and instantly has major front "wrist" swelling.

The handler leaps in water and carries screaming dog back to shore. The test breaks up as the dog is carried to a vehicle. A birdboy picks up dumper bird that the shocked honor dog never picked up.

The judges and some Field Test Committee members remove the submerged log and scour the area for more hazards. None found, they find a bye-dog to stand in for the injured dog while a new dog/handler come to the line to run.

Here's the question: Assume you are a judge or you are on the Field Test Committee. Would you:

A) Conclude that the injured dog has already completed the mark and blind, has already exhibited steadiness and honored on both sides of the double-honor. Conclude that the triple and blind - the only scored portions as per the written standard - have already been completed well. Rule that the dog, pending no broken bones and the owner's choice to proceed is invited back to the next series.

B) Conclude that the dog has must pick up that dumper bird, despite exhibiting steadiness and honoring, and despite already completing the scored portions of the water series. Require that the injured dog, should the owner desire a qualification and title from this event, return to the line later and stand in as honor dog again, but complete the dumper, 10 foot max retrieve.

C) Conclude something different (please give details)

I thought this would be a stimulating discussion. This is a real-life scenario and I happened to be there. After it's been hashed out some, I'll come back in and share with you what the judges and the field test committee said - and what they did.

Please feel free to put on your thinking caps, back up your conclusion with your logic and reasons, and enjoy! 8)
 

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NEVER seen a NAHRA test nor read the rules but this seems fair to me.

If the dog is physically capable, bring it back and complete the honor and RETRIEVE of the "dumper" bird, regardless of the distance it falls from the dog.

Already voted but didn't give the reason.

Jerry
 
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I need to probably re-read the NAHRA Senior portion of the rulebook. Having said that, and from Chris's description of the dog completing the scored portion of the test, I would carry it over to the next series. I didn't think there were honors in NAHRA Senior. (Like I said, I need to reread the rules to verify.) Because of that, how can a dog be scored or dropped for something that isn't required??? I may be way off, but that is how I see it.

Ron
 

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NAHRA Test

Chris - I thought NAHRA was in your past.

In answering your question, I would first point out that demeanor of the honor dog is not relevant to the decision and that this is a judge's call and not one for the committee.

Since the rule book does not provide the latitude for including a marking test in addition to the land and water triples, there is no rule that the dog must pick up this bird. I would judge it same as an unfair fall in the upland test and let the dog move on to the next series. At the point only honoring was being tested and the dog had already passed.

Ask me how I would interpret it as an AKC judge and I would say the dog would have to rerun the honor and pick up the bird.

Russ
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Good responses so far.

I'm not so sure that there IS, one exactly correct, perfect answer. I think there is more than one way to skin the cat here:

Here's more to the story to help those of you who have not yet responded feel like you're there.

The owner is back in the truck with her injured dog. The dog has quit crying after a few minutes and the ankle is swelling. It is late in the day and the next series, for those dogs called back will be in the morning on the following day. The owner is sticking around to find out what the judges want her to do.

Many there are telling her to forget the test and go see the vet. The owner is excited about her MHR and wants to not do anything to jeopardize her dog's chances...they are almost there.

- Chris
 

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Honoring

Ron - Honoring is specifically allowed in the NAHRA rule book.

Russ
 

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Russ, does this mean that the handler could have heeled the dog off the line without retrieving the dump bird, or just that under the circumstances presented, it's not required that the dog come back, honor, and retrieve after the "accident" because it did in fact "honor"?

I know that in AKC HT's the competing dog is not scored on the MARK of a Diversion bird, but they MUST retrieve it.

I've never read the rules so I am shooting in the dark.

Jerry
 
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I thinks its a no brainer!! The dawg has obviosly demonstrated it has all the neccessary requirements to pass and or move to the next series. This was TEST SET-UP ERROR. not handler or dawg error. Correct me if i'm wrong but the purpose of the honor is to test the dawgs steadiness. Well in this case the dawg did not budge until commanded to do so. Hence the dawg should be premitted to move on if physically able .
 

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Chris Atkinson said:
Many there are telling her to forget the test and go see the vet. The owner is excited about her MHR and wants to not do anything to jeopardize her dog's chances...they are almost there.

- Chris
I know this isn't about the test per se, but, IMO, she's jeopardizing the dog's career...where is the emergency vet???
 

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If it was a foot or leg injury I would load him on the truck and take him to the vet. Anything that could have a detrimental effect on this injury would be stupid on my part. The hell with the ribbon.

Just my thoughts

Joe M.
 

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If it was designed as an honor test she obviously passed. If it was designed as an honor with a mark (10ft)?. I think it comes down to the intent of the test. Sounds like an honor test to me
 

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<<Russ, does this mean that the handler could have heeled the dog off the line without retrieving the dump bird, or just that under the circumstances presented, it's not required that the dog come back, honor, and retrieve after the "accident" because it did in fact "honor"?>>

The rules allow for the dog to not pick up the bird on the "sit to flush" test if it flies away, falls in a briar patch or falls too far away. As the honoring situation is not treated as a mark, the judge would have the discretion to call it a bad fall due the underwater hazard.

<<I know that in AKC HT's the competing dog is not scored on the MARK of a Diversion bird, but they MUST retrieve it.>>

Jerry

As I stated, I would require a rerun if judging AKC. The rules are different.


Russ
Russ
 

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I would say she is back if the dog is OK. I'd tell her to go to the vet now and get her checked. If my co judge was dead set on having her pick up the dump bird ,I'd say throw that dump bird mark in the AM,and go on to the next test. Jim
 

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The dog has exhibited the ability to do the test... no rule says all dogs have to run the same series. He passes. I've seen dogs pass when the bird sank on a mark and they returned with nothing... hell i've seen field trial dogs get ribbons when they never picked up the last bird of a series (only seen that one, but you get the idea).

Shayne
 

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Had to be a situation where the bird floated off and the dog was Judged to the area of the fall.


Jerry
 

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Jerry said:
WHERE did you see a FT dog get a ribbon w/o picking up the last bird????

Jerry
I observed a dog pick up a bumper instead of the duck on the long memory bird in an Open a few months ago. The dog did not get within forty yards of the actual mark which would have entailed getting out of the water, diagonally crossing a road and going up a hill. The bird was over the brim of the hill. The dog picked up third place which qualified it for its FC.

Russ
 

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I was also considering that perhaps the blind wasn't planted and the dog got to the area, but there was nothing to retrieve.

Now that you mentioned it, I have seen a dog get a callback from the first series when it brought a bumper back.

Jerry
 

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Jerry said:
WHERE did you see a FT dog get a ribbon w/o picking up the last bird????

Jerry
It was at our trial a couple years ago. A dog in the last series of the AM hunted forever before the handler blew the whistle, handler boxed the dog around the area several times and nothing. Handler called the dog in. I took the judges out there on the 6x6 and they deemed the bird to have sank. The mark landed amongst several small fingers of water and was no where to be found. Turtle prolly got it. I don't remember the color, but the dog was judged to the area and did get a ribbon.

Shayne
 
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