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Chapter 5: Test Requirements for Junior, Senior and Master Hunting Tests


Section 4. Master Hunting Test

(6) A Master dog that creeps shall be scored relatively lower than creeping in Senior. A controlled break in Master must be scored "0" in Trainability

Chapter 4: Standards for Junior, Senior and Master Hunting Tests



Section 6.

The handler of the honoring dog may speak quietly to the honoring dog provided the handler does not interfere with other handlers, the working dog(s) or the Judges.

Note* While speaking quietly to the honoring dog is allowed, threatening gestures or any form of intimidation is not acceptable and shall not be allowed by the Judges

Guidelines for the Hunting Test
Part I - Hunting Test Planning, Mechanics and Setup

Judges' Responsibilities
8: The Judges shall agree in advance as to the extent of movement which shall be considered creeping, short of breaking, and whether working dogs that do "creep" should be brought to heel before being sent to retrieve.


Part V - Guide for Dealing with Some Interpretational Issues

1. Break. It is generally understood that a break occurs when a dog makes a movement, that, in the opinion of the Judges, indicates a deliberate intent to retrieve without having been ordered to do so, and cannot be brought under control by the handler.


2. A controlled break is generally when a dog leaves to retrieve before being sent, but is quickly brought under control by verbal command or whistle and returns to the handler. A controlled break in Master calls for a "0" score (Ch. 5, Sec. 4 [6]).


3. Creeping is generally considered as leaving the handler on a tentative yet excited basis, short of leaving completely to retrieve the bird, or waiting to be sent to retrieve. General unsteadiness, short of breaking.
The Master Judges have set up Breaking Test with an Honor and have placed a a marker at a distance of (X) after which the dogs under judgement will be considered to have Broken rather than Crept.
Depending on how far the dog Creeps ,but stays behind (X) the Judges ask some handlers to re-heel there dogs.

After the Working dog has been given it's number and left to retrieve the honoring dog leaves it's Handler on a tentative yet excited basis
but does not cross (X) because the handler speaking quietly to the honoring dog causes the creeping dog to return to heel.

Armed with the above Rules how is the Honoring dog scored
john
 
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The dog is scored down in trainability, but is not given a zero. The handler is allowed to use their voice to control their honor dog. In the scenario presented, I would think that if the honor dog crossed the creep line, it would have been considered to have broken. If it crossed the creep line and came back under control, it still would be considered to have broken. But if it did not cross the creep line, then it should be OK.

Hopefully the judges have set up the honor and creep lines in a manner that if the honor dog does reach the creep line, it does not interfere with the working dog to alter the test for that dog.

-Kristie
 

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Question, the creep/break line is 5', the honor dog creeps 10' does not attempt to retrieve and does not interfere with the working dog. Just because of the arbritrary line by the judge, I really don't see how you could eliminate the honor dog in this case in the MH test.
 
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Steve Bean said:
Question, the creep/break line is 5', the honor dog creeps 10' does not attempt to retrieve and does not interfere with the working dog. Just because of the arbritrary line by the judge, I really don't see how you could eliminate the honor dog in this case in the MH test.
The judges could consider the dog out of control... and score it a 0 in trainability.

-Kristie
 

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I understand, but the line could be 3' and 6' just as easy. I understand there should be a limit, but the implied intent of regulation is avoiding interference with the working dog....if they meant not move a foot, then they would have said so. For example, if you don't want any movement, honor from a platform or boat. But on land, it is purely an arbritrary line that has no real meaning other than costing you $60.
 

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Steve Bean wrote, with regard to a creep/honor line:

But on land, it is purely an arbritrary line that has no real meaning other than costing you $60.
So how do we make it have real meaning? Let me know soon, 'cause I'm judging a Master in two weeks and I need to make sure our honor on land "has real meaning".... :wink: .....

Keith G......just tryin' to understand where you're coming from on this one, Brother Steve! :wink: !
 
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Steve Bean said:
I understand, but the line could be 3' and 6' just as easy. I understand there should be a limit, but the implied intent of regulation is avoiding interference with the working dog....if they meant not move a foot, then they would have said so. For example, if you don't want any movement, honor from a platform or boat. But on land, it is purely an arbritrary line that has no real meaning other than costing you $60.
I understand. I think the line just gives a concrete method for judging it for everyone. I think it would be better to be subjective and gauge each particular dog's performance, but the creep line gives every contestant a clear boundary. ALSO... A creep line on an honor could be set up in such a manner that if the honor dog goes beyond that, it is clearly interfering with the working dog (i.e., in line of sight to marks, etc.).

For the purpose of discussion... If there's not a creep line (and it's been a long time since I've seen one anyway), then what is the best way to measure how much is too much? I guess that's what judging is all about.

-Kristie
 

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My dear follically challanged friend, the real meaning of life......I am sure you will be unequivocally fair in your interpretation of the rules and what they mean to the Master Hunter. I'm sure of you and me, it's just everyone else I'm worried about :wink: Just sayin' I hate 3' on one day and 10' another on the same test. Again the intent IMO is the honor dog shall not interfere, but should act as expected of a MH as well. Maybe the real rub would come from the SH in the same scenerio. Granted an honor dog that creeps out of shotgun range may have some issues. :lol:
 

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Had someone earlier this year state without any hesitation the "there is no creeping allowed in the Master." :shock:

Makes me wonder how many judges out there do not understand the difference between creeping and breaking.

An arbitrary "creep line" is, well, arbitrary. But I'll take it if it means the judges know the difference!

As far as John's scenario, it would just be a ding in trainability. The dog was brought back under control AFTER the working dog left, but BEFORE causing an interference, thus demonstrating that the handler HAS control. Maybe not as good as we'd like...

Lisa - whose dog sometimes creeps on the honor.
 

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Steve Bean wrote, relative to the honor/creep line issue:

Just sayin' I hate 3' on one day and 10' another on the same test. Again the intent IMO is the honor dog shall not interfere, but should act as expected of a MH as well.
Okay....that I agree with. As for being "follically challenged," we'd belong in the same club, wouldn't we? :lol: !!!!!

Keith G.
 

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judge, part two

Would y'all please quit giving Mr. Griffith any more evil ideas about honoring lines and breaking tests?
Thank you.
Becky (who's own little precious darling love would never think about creeping or breaking, especially after going pheasant hunting for a week right before the test)
 

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Becky, I'm sorry, hopefully Keith did not (possibly cannot) read about the boat or platform. And I'm sure he wouldn't use a convenient stump, or put the dog just at the water's edge..... just to do a breaking test or honor :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :lol:
 

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judge, part two

AAAAAGGGGGHHHHHHH
 

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Becky, just so that you know, I'm not a big fan of hunting tests whose primary function is to cause a dog to break....shooting a flyer from next to the dog, or throwing a dead bird from behind the dog that lands 10 feet in front of him. That stuff doesn't belong in this game, IMHO.

Now, that said, if a flyer comes out from 30 yards away from behind a holding blind that lands in the decoys in front of the dog....that is another story entirely! :shock: :wink: !

Keith Griffith....wondering if there will be any flatbottom boats available in a couple of weeks......hmmmmmmmmmmmm..... 8)
 

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judge

What a relief.
Becky
(who is going to be scouring this farm for a flat bottom boat as soon as we get back from Iowa)
 

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Steve

My take on the honor dog would be, You can speak softly to the honor dog, which to me would be to keep the dog sitting in the position of the honor as requested by the judges. If the honor dog creeps out say 6-10 feet and the handler says "sit" or "no" or any other thing that causes the dog to stop,even if it is said softly, to me by the action of the handler and effect it had on the dog, it is a controled break. I personally go by the rule of what is a safe distance as far as muzzle blast. If we were hunting. anything that would be far enough as to be unsafe for the dog, I consider it to far on the honor. As always different people have different takes on honor, and this is just my oponion.

Nelson
 

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Of course this is an interpetational issue. I generally avoid making arbritrary lines. You have fast dogs, slow dogs, bouncing dogs, slow handlers, fast handlers, you get the picture. Too many varibles. I do like it to be the judges' descretion without painting myself into a corner because of the arbritrary lines. But with the instances John has pointed out, it can be testy at times, hence better to leave everyone some squiggle room and then take it in the context of overall dog work.
 

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Steve

I completely agree one should not draw a line in the sand. That can, and will come back to bite you. I just feel once the dog leaves the assigned position the "can speak softly to the dog" rule goes out the window. It then becomes a controlled break simply by the action of stopping the dog.

Nelson Nichols
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Nelson wrote:

If the honor dog creeps out say 6-10 feet and the handler says "sit" or "no" or any other thing that causes the dog to stop,even if it is said softly, to me by the action of the handler and effect it had on the dog, it is a controled break.
A thorough search of the relevant sections of the Rules yields no evidence tending to prove the existence of Forbidden words not to be spoken while on Honor?
Could you point me to the place or places in the Rules that would cause one to come that conclusion?

john
 

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Discussion Starter #20
Here's a good one from the archives.

Some say that you are horizontally challenged as well regards

john
 
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