[Arnie]

Gage has been a pretty good marker. We are training at Master level. Actually he has proven to be a better marker than I am and therein lies the problem. Even though he marks a fall if I'm not lined up exactly he will take my "line" even though he knows where the bird has dropped. I don't want to handle him to a mark. He doesn't pop and I don't want to get him started so I will walk out to the area of the fall and tell him to "hunt it up". He then goes right to where he knows the bird is.

As a possible cure I have set up a holding blind that I stay behind and sit him in front of. He is very steady so no problem there. I've given him a number of singles and sent him remotely. That seemed to work. He goes straight to the fall. Also, I have done the "training alone" exercise where I put him in a sit and walk out up to 100+ yards and hand throw marks. He will sit until I send him and retrieve to me where we do it over again. This too seems to be working. He is relying on his own eyes instead of my body position.

My question is how do we transition back to him regaining confidence in his own marks and not line up on me.

He has passed three HRC Finished tests (out of four) and has had four great first series in AKC Master (unfortunately in four different tests).

Any ideas would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Todd Caswell]

So if the bird is at 12 o'clock and you line him up at 10 o'clock he will take the line to 10 and stay there and hunt, even though you "think" he knows where the bird really is????? If he really is that honest on his lines then I would say you need to work harder as a handler getting him lined up properly, if he goes that straight you should never miss a bird if lined up properly

 

[Arnie]

You got the idea. He will take that 10 o'clock line and look for a bird. If I could line up properly I wouldn't have posted this. I'm embarrassed to say that we have failed tests because I have handled him to the wrong place. I'm working on it!

By the way, this started after we worked successfully on "poison birds".

 

[John Robinson]

I don't mean to insult you intelligence, but how about working on lining him up right. Like Todd, I'm a little skeptical. A good marker will come back to the line and line himself up looking straight out at the bird. You should only need to line him up if he's lined himself up wrong. So assuming you're correct about your dog being a good marker with good memory, 1) Make mental note of where the bird is, pick out a spot and remember it. 2) Let your dog have his head when he comes back to the line, see if he lines himself up with the mark. 3) If he does, reinforce the good mark, by putting your hand down say "good mark" or "that's it", then send him. 3) If he's off, help him out by lining him up properly, if he still seems vague or keeps looking in the wrong spot, have the gunner step out then retire in-route.

 

[Todd Caswell]

I wasn't trying to criticis I was just trying to understand, are these on HT length marks? I can see it on 200+ yard marks if you have a dog that is really good at holding a line if your off a few degrees they could end up way out of the area of the fall but on a 100 yard mark?? Sounds more like he's not confortable going in there to dig out a bird, did he get alot of corrections either going for or picking up a poison bird??

 

[Arnie]

I'm not sure I explained this clearly. Most times I line up correctly and there is no problem. Unfortunately, all to often, when my judgement is off and he returns to the line he will defer to my alignment rather than his memory.

I think I created this by training him running blinds between a go bird and a memory bird and with sharp angled poison birds.

 

[BonMallari]

Arnie : are you or have you purposely been trying to "line your dog to the marks" or could it be that you may not have shown the dog the difference between your marks and your blinds..Do you drop your hand on a mark like you do on a blind to cue your dog ? if so you might want to stop that practice for now because on the surface the dog seems to rely on the "line" that you create at the mat

 

[KwickLabs]

Premise number one is dogs make mistakes because they are out of balance. The dog is now paying too much attention to you. Evidently, the recent poison bird "stuff" has something to do with it (probably not all).

Consider the five factors of balance - retrieving, "birdiness", control, focus and responsiveness. It is unusual to have a dog that is too responsive. However, you may need to do more "stuff" in training that requires less of your input and control. Again "letting loose" is not the usual solution, but from your posts it kind of fits into your thinking. Problems can often be isolated into "too much of this and/or not enough that".

Of course (as everyone else mentioned).....your lining skills may need some work. A video camera (behind you) can help immensely.

 

[Arnie]

I really appreciate the input. He's my first and only hunt test dog and we've come a long way together in less than three years. The more I learn the more I realize how much I have yet to learn.

The remote marks with a holding blind and a couple of yards between us seem to work well. Last Saturday was the first time I tried them. On the first one which was a clear 75 yard mark, when I sent him on his name he looked back at me as if to say "are you sure?". I said his name again and he went right to it. After the first there was no hesitation and he pinned a number of marks of increasing difficulty (distance, cover, suction). Now I have to figure out how to convince him to work out the marks without relying on me when at heel. That is the point to this posting.

 

[BonMallari]

I really appreciate the input. He's my first and only hunt test dog and we've come a long way together in less than three years. The more I learn the more I realize how much I have yet to learn.

The remote marks with a holding blind and a couple of yards between us seem to work well. Last Saturday was the first time I tried them. On the first one which was a clear 75 yard mark, when I sent him on his name he looked back at me as if to say "are you sure?". I said his name again and he went right to it. After the first there was no hesitation and he pinned a number of marks of increasing difficulty (distance, cover, suction). Now I have to figure out how to convince him to work out the marks without relying on me when at heel. That is the point to this posting.

That is what is known as a "Pop"...lots of threads on the RTF about them, but the bottom line is that you want no part of them ....also for now you might want to stop the practice of running a blind in between marks, all it does right now is confuse the dog about the task at hand

 

[mjh345]

That is what is known as a "Pop"...lots of threads on the RTF about them, but the bottom line is that you want no part of them ....also for now you might want to stop the practice of running a blind in between marks, all it does right now is confuse the dog about the task at hand

Actually I'd rerfer to it as a "no go"; want no part of those either

 

[BonMallari]

Actually I'd rerfer to it as a "no go"; want no part of those either

probably more accurate description

 

[Mary Lynn Metras]

If I do the blind first, I try not to line him to the mark but let him come in and place himself. I cue him "where's your mark" IMO

 

[Wayne Nutt]

Do you use holding blinds in the field to hide your launchers? If distances are reasonable then both you and the dog should be able to pick them out. You might consider going to white stickmen for a while and run lots
of singles.
Are you using ducks?

 

[DRAKEHAVEN]

Gage has been a pretty good marker. We are training at Master level. Actually he has proven to be a better marker than I am and therein lies the problem. Even though he marks a fall if I'm not lined up exactly he will take my "line" even though he knows where the bird has dropped. I don't want to handle him to a mark. He doesn't pop and I don't want to get him started so I will walk out to the area of the fall and tell him to "hunt it up". He then goes right to where he knows the bird is.

As a possible cure I have set up a holding blind that I stay behind and sit him in front of. He is very steady so no problem there. I've given him a number of singles and sent him remotely. That seemed to work. He goes straight to the fall. Also, I have done the "training alone" exercise where I put him in a sit and walk out up to 100+ yards and hand throw marks. He will sit until I send him and retrieve to me where we do it over again. This too seems to be working. He is relying on his own eyes instead of my body position.

My question is how do we transition back to him regaining confidence in his own marks and not line up on me.

He has passed three HRC Finished tests (out of four) and has had four great first series in AKC Master (unfortunately in four different tests).

Any ideas would be greatly appreciated.

You need to learn to spot bowl

 

[Wayne Nutt]

Drakehaven, That almost went over my head. I haven't thought about spot bowling in many, many years.

 

[Gatzby]

I apologize if this over simplifying. If it's a left healing dog, point your left foot towards the memory bird right after it's thrown. When the dog returns he will be more or less lined up. I would run more singles so the dog grows confidence in his marking, than run some multiples. After that run about 80/20 singles to multiples. But after that's said you still need to learn to mark as well.

 

[RookieTrainer]

If I do the blind first, I try not to line him to the mark but let him come in and place himself. I cue him "where's your mark" IMO

This. Does anybody else's dog come back to the line and then back himself into heel pointed at the next bird? Mine has always done that and it seems to work for us.

 

[Hunt'EmUp]

Hmm I'd set him up for remote marking and sends; if your not beside him to screw him up, he should go to where he knows the bird is. Bring a nice chair to sit in why he does the work Problem Solved

Still in training I wouldn't mess with him at the line, I'd send him; if he goes to the wrong place-or takes the wrong line (on a mark), I'd whistle sit him NO nick, Get in here!!! Get your mark (Resend), Dog learns it's his responsibility to get to the mark, the correct way. Regardless if handler sent him in the wrong direction, wrong line etc. Marks are his job, lining up correctly for marks is part of that job...Blinds are another matter entirely; probably why we have cues to tell a dog when it's his job or ours (Mark) (Dead Bird) (Leave it) etc.

 

[A team]

This. Does anybody else's dog come back to the line and then back himself into heel pointed at the next bird? Mine has always done that and it seems to work for us.

Bingo,

If I throw multples, I know my pup has the mark when she looks over her shoulder at the memory mark on the way back in, She then backs her self into position, I take the bird or bummper from her mouth, I then confirm her mark with "that's right girl , that's your bird" and send her name. Big send if the bird is WAY out or little send if the bird is easy.

Have fun with it.