[truthseeker]

For those of you that are serious, I suggest you pay attention to detail. The little things are the different between winning and losing. The judges I know don't like to see a dog that looks like their fooling around when picking up their birds.

Keith

 

[Dustin D]

For those of you that are serious, I suggest you pay attention to detail. The little things are the different between winning and losing. The judges I know don't like to see a dog that looks like their fooling around when picking up their birds.

Keith

There is no cigar end to a bird, so what's your point?

What are you suggesting is the details that need attention paid to?

 

[Paul Brown]

For those of you that are serious, I suggest you pay attention to detail. The little things are the different between winning and losing. The judges I know don't like to see a dog that looks like their fooling around when picking up their birds.

Keith

Yeah, because Bill Hillmann isn't serious. He's only producing outstanding, competitive dogs year after year.

 

[truthseeker]

There is no cigar end to a bird, so what's your point?

What are you suggesting is the details that need attention paid to?

What happens if the dog is not trained to pick up from the middle is. that the bird has a some what football shape to them. If the dog hits one end they have a tendency to want to regrip. If the bird is still alive and the dog hits on the end. The bird will get away and now the chase is on. For a hunting dog this is fine, but for a trial dog it dose not look good. In FT the truth is, that it's not what the dog can do. It's what they look like when they are doing it.

Keith

 

[truthseeker]

Yeah, because Bill Hillmann isn't serious. He's only producing outstanding, competitive dogs year after year.

Yes, but I will bet you ten dollars to a donut that he cleans it up during formal training.

Keith

 

[paul young]

For those of you that are serious, I suggest you pay attention to detail. The little things are the different between winning and losing. The judges I know don't like to see a dog that looks like their fooling around when picking up their birds.

Keith

"If you train a young dog for momentum, precision will arrive. If you train for precision, demanding perfection, momentum will depart." ~Rex Carr

You probably don't agree with this guy, either.........

 

[HPL]

So, for those of us who couldn't care less about playing the games, not a concern? Over the nearly 30 years that I have had a retriever, I can honestly only think of one bird that got away once my dog got to it. He was young and a bit too exuberant and tossed a duck on his run back (missed it on the way back down, duck hit the water and dived, never to be seen again), but that's the only one. My current knucklehead will cigar a dummy now and then, picks the Dokkens up by the head occasionally, but puts the whole real dove in his mouth. Just not a problem. (As far as being hesitant to pick up a real bird, all three have been on the birds like white on rice, and really loved cripples).

 

[Dustin D]

"if you train a young dog for momentum, precision will arrive. If you train for precision, demanding perfection, momentum will depart." ~rex carr

you probably don't agree with this guy, either.........

truth seeker!!!

I seek the truth....but only in the mirror....

Sorry man, just joking with ya.

 

[Renee P.]

:shock:

Dis is what happens if you allow cigaring! She snatch it up so fast, she don't know which end is which!

 

[Rick Hall]

Or this:

 

[RookieTrainer]

I feel like one of the biggest mistakes I made as a newbie trainer was picking up my pup from his trainer after FF and CC, going into FTP, and getting into a protracted battle with him about cigaring. He does not grab birds like that, he does not readjust any more than any other dog I have seen, and birds do not get away. I think all I did was encourage an already hot dog to get hotter when I should have been working on something else. Like steadiness.

 

[Mark Littlejohn]

Me: "Does that bother you"?
Danny: "What"?
Me: "That my dog is bringing that bumper back by the rope"
DF: "She ever had a problem with birds"?
Me: "Nope"
DF: "Then I wouldn't worry about it".

 

[Paul Brown]

Yes, but I will bet you ten dollars to a donut that he cleans it up during formal training.

Keith

I can tell that you're more interested in being right, than getting it right; so, I bid you good day.

 

[HPL]

Funniest thing I've seen in several days!! Gave me a great laugh. (you did get the bird, didn't you?)

:shock:

Dis is what happens if you allow cigaring! She snatch it up so fast, she don't know which end is which!

 

[HPL]

Great choke hold ;-)

Or this:

 

[truthseeker]

Where yours blue ribbons. I can show you mine.

Keith

 

[Breck]

If Cigar Hold, Sloppy Hold, or mouthing bumpers was Desirable it would be taught as part of the "Program". (Insert whomevers name)
It ain't and it ain't.
.
Lots of things related to dog training play off of other seemingly unrelated aspects. Proper Hold, reinforced, will pay dividends later.
.
Like cigar hold? Think it doesn't matter? Then charge your clients for it and make sure to demonstrate dog can really cigar hold when client shows up.
.

 

[Rick Hall]

Not advantageous? Balderdash.

"Spoonie? What spoonie?"

 

[Dustin D]

But if a dog cigars dummies, yet picks up birds properly...."What difference does it make"?

The dummy is not the bird, the bird is not the dummy.
Bumpers aren't thrown at FT's or HT's .... so ... "What difference does it make"?
...if the dog is proper holding the bird.

You guys may possibly be taking the point beyond it's intended purpose.
I'm fairly certain the point is not that cigar holding is desirable
but that it's not worth fretting over or in need of hard corrections for a junior dog.

Remember, we are talking about Bill Hillmann here, usually in the context of Junior Dogs.
The video is about 'HOLD', not Post Force Fetch Advanced Trained Dogs.

I doubt that Bill would allow cigaring from a finished/seasoned dog
but I also doubt he'd take away from the dog's drive and energy to fix it
.....as long as birds are treated proper.


I could also be totally wrong

 

[Paul Brown]

The videos clips which inspired this thread regards teaching the "Hold" command, which precedes the "Fetch" command in Hillmann's. This is about teaching "Hold" in an easy, low pressure atmosphere, not the 'traditional' Force Fetch of other programs.