I've got a blf that will be 2 in November and she is an HRCH and SH. she has never given me in real issues and been very easy to train. In the last week she has started not retrieving multiples. She will take off after the go bird But when it comes to the second and third mark all bets are off. Most of the time she does get the second mark. When she returns she will look out at the next mark but when I say her name she will take off and go a few feet and spin around and come back or not go at all. I train at Qual distances for the most part but she will do this at shorter distances as well. She does it on land and water. I'm signed up to run master the next three weekends and up until this had no worries. Any body had similar issues with a dog and found things to bring them out of it. I have run singles and then run it as a triple with same outcome. I run a double and then add one for a triple and same outcome. When she does go she is on fire. Throwing dirt. She loves to retrieve. Any insight or ideas would be wonderful. Thanks.
Multiple retrieve issue
Rob DeHaven
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I had the same problem this past summer with my dog. He is turning 5 next week. He made his Master Hunter title at 3 1/2 years of age. He has a RJ in a Qual and is thoroughly forced. I would consider him a pretty finished dog, as much as they can be in my opinion. I know where the problems began. He is not a water cheating dog, but he is very "gun dependent" with standout guns in a field trial setting. Hidden guns in a hunt test setting he is obviously less gun dependent, but to some extent as he marks off of whatever tee, hay bale or holding blind set in the field to hide the gun. And he is very steady for the most part and has good focus on the line. The gun dependence however is a different problem not related to the concern by the OP. I have a plan for that already. Let's not get off topic. The problems arose when I gave him some stout corrections for flaring his line when retrieving in-line marks, or giving a wide berth on a short retired gun enroute to a long gun, or occasionally backsiding a gun or something like that. you know the type of correction one would make when the dog makes a bad decision. I mentioned my problem to a pretty successful pro in our area. This is what he showed me. He told me he does this procedure with all of his dogs about 90% of the time. Throw the multiple mark test so the dog gets in the habit of watching the marks go down and develops the steadiness and focus we desire. Pick up the go bird. When the dog comes back to the line, point in the direction of the next retrieve and have the gunner automatically rethrow the bird on your signal without a shot or sound. Send dog and make retriever. Do likewise on the third mark. The theory is the dog has lost some confidence because of the corrections they have faced. They show us they remember the bird, but no go as they are afraid of making a mistake. Even a handle with no pressure can be interpreted by the dog as a correction in my mind. By rethrowing you reinstill that confidence and desire. And, if the dog does cheat or take a bad line or something you know they are in need of correction and they understand what they are being corrected for. If the dog is making mistakes without the rethrow, the trainer has to consider is the dog making a bad choice or are they truly lost. If they get a rethrow and still cheat, now you know they are making a bad choice and deserve a correction.
It worked for me. I started doing the rethrow a lot in the month of July. My dog really did well with it. He ran a bunch in August and September and we picked up 2 master passes, two NAHRA Senior passes, got a RJ in a Qual, and got second place in the Minnesota Retriever Championships. It really seemed to boost his confidence.
Before doing the rethrows, when he would no-go I would go to the heel a step or two and nick and resend. That just made him go but didn't add to his confidence.
I would give this a try and see how it works for you. My dog obviously could do triples and quads. He is a Master hunter. It is not that he can't count, it just that he had lost confidence and enthusiasm.
It worked for me. I started doing the rethrow a lot in the month of July. My dog really did well with it. He ran a bunch in August and September and we picked up 2 master passes, two NAHRA Senior passes, got a RJ in a Qual, and got second place in the Minnesota Retriever Championships. It really seemed to boost his confidence.
Before doing the rethrows, when he would no-go I would go to the heel a step or two and nick and resend. That just made him go but didn't add to his confidence.
I would give this a try and see how it works for you. My dog obviously could do triples and quads. He is a Master hunter. It is not that he can't count, it just that he had lost confidence and enthusiasm.
If her first cycle was at about a year,,when was her second. Its common for dogs to have one about on 6 month intervals. Odd behaviors concerning trained tasks can go completely hay wire during times surrounding heat cycles. I had one that thought a happy bumper while out airing before her set up was a poison bird and would run over the top of it ,look at it and keep on going with a defeated posture. Going back to old falls,cheating water completely when they are very watery by nature,,you name it. Hormones are a funny thing. Not funny haha,,but,,
Pete
Pete
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Rob:
Question: Does she no-go on multiples if there are actual people in the field? If my dog was no-going on multiples via launchers I would quickly change over to people. Worst case scenario you have someone to help you in the field (HoHum's suggestion for example).
This is a problem that could be caused by several issues. You have to figure out (as best as you can) what caused it to appropriately fix it. Talk it over with a pro or seasoned amateur that you likely train with. HoHum and Todd are both correct with potential fixes assuming the cause is related. However, if it is hormonal and you try to fix it using force you could make the situation much worse.
I had a similar issue if you feel like it PM me.
In addition to the advice you have been given: one way to increase desire for the memory bird was taught to me by a pro and my training partner. Have a launcher be the go bird and put a person out in white with a live shackled pigeon out at distance (pigeon needs to be visible) as the memory mark. Chances are she'll be pretty psyched to get the memory bird.
Question: Does she no-go on multiples if there are actual people in the field? If my dog was no-going on multiples via launchers I would quickly change over to people. Worst case scenario you have someone to help you in the field (HoHum's suggestion for example).
This is a problem that could be caused by several issues. You have to figure out (as best as you can) what caused it to appropriately fix it. Talk it over with a pro or seasoned amateur that you likely train with. HoHum and Todd are both correct with potential fixes assuming the cause is related. However, if it is hormonal and you try to fix it using force you could make the situation much worse.
I had a similar issue if you feel like it PM me.
In addition to the advice you have been given: one way to increase desire for the memory bird was taught to me by a pro and my training partner. Have a launcher be the go bird and put a person out in white with a live shackled pigeon out at distance (pigeon needs to be visible) as the memory mark. Chances are she'll be pretty psyched to get the memory bird.
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The standard way to deal with a no go is a collar correction. But if you have never done this before, dog may not understand correction and you could dig yourself into a deeper hole.
I have had problems like yours twice. The first time was when she was a puppy and I screwed up trying to correct a slipped sit whistle. The fix came from throwing her some doubles close in (as she would do those), and then gradually increasing the distance. You might try this as sort of a drill where you do the throws on land with no factors. First have the memory bird super close but gradually extending the distance of the go bird, then gradually extending the distance of the memory bird. An experienced amateur helped me.
This summer seemingly out of the blue she would get the go-bird, then come back seemingly oblivious to the fact that there were more birds out there to retrieve. I would send, she would go, but just keep going and going like she thought she was on a blind. In general her marking was atrocious. I have no idea what was going on, I thought maybe I was out of balance with blinds but some how in all this she managed to place in an Open. I just had her do singles, and she now seems back to her old self and is now doing well on multiples again. I also wondered if she had some hidden injury.
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I appreciate all the insight and am taking all of it in. I have been training for 14 years so this is not my first go round but the first time a dog that was doing so well started doing this with marks. I have thought about this so much my head hurts and the only thing that comes to mind is correction for initial line but that was some time a go. She has no problems with singles and really no problem with doubles but the third bird she looks out in that direction but then acts like she has no idea there is a mark out there. Her desire does not seem to be the issue. She is always ready to retrieve. Kind of manic about it actually. She is no going but it's a no go from the point of refusal I don't believe. I really watched her eyes and face this morning and it really seemed like she had no idea th mark was there. The last series I did this morning was on water and she nailed the first 2 and took off after the third which was the longest. Half through the swim part she turned and looked but turned right back around and proceeded to the mark. I did use the heel nick send on an earlier mark and she took off.
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Pile work doesn't seem like the answer for a no go on a mark
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You may want to resequence your first sentence.
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Hmmmm reread it and don't see that I typed it up wrong. What do you think I should have written instead?
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This is what I think I typed.Move forward with a here nick here then send.
Just saying...
Nick comes after the "send" command. On a mark it is here (to get them moving), DogName-nick.
For a no-go on a blind, it is here (moving forward) back-nick.
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No the nick is before the send command on a mark. It gets dog's attention to go.
Indirect pressure. Give command....nick....then give command and hope dog understands the correction.
You are right on a blind but you will say back again.
Just saying.
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The whole idea behind the here nick here with the movement forward is that you are using indirect pressure to enforce the back command. It would be direct pressure if you sent the dog with 'back nick' on a 'heel up' - walking up would then be of no consequence to the dog. It would seem to them like they were just starting over.
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A couple of thoughts…
What do you read in the dog? Is it disobedience, confusion, memory, lack of effort?
What kind of setup is it? What factors are involved? Check your notes from the setups a few days before this started? Did something occur, like a real stiff correction in the field for something? Is there something similar in the setups that may be causing this?
A lot of people are saying treat it as a no-go and burn forward and resend. I would caution against doing that, especially on marks. It can lead to all kinds of problems, like bugging, spinning, laying down, bad attitude on marks. Remember you want the dog to be comfortable on the line and burning them on the line can lead to a real mess.
What are you doing on the line? Are you creating this by your behavior?
This is something that is real hard to give advice on via the internet, I would really need to see it. Have you simplified the setups? My people think they need super hard setups in every training session to get something out of it or make progress in training. This can lead to a dog with a poor attitude. Personally, I would simplify this a lot, fairly short wide open triple with visible gunners, lots of noise and just let the dog enjoy being successful for a while. Also build the triple. Run each one as a single, then run it as a triple.
I would strongly caution again about burning a dog that is confused or truly doesn’t remember the marks. Your there to be the mentor and teacher, not the dictator. Also view this as an opportunity to improve in your training skills. Anybody can train a trained dog, however it takes a “trainer” to examine problems and find solutions for the dog having a problem. Have fun working through it….
/Paul
What do you read in the dog? Is it disobedience, confusion, memory, lack of effort?
What kind of setup is it? What factors are involved? Check your notes from the setups a few days before this started? Did something occur, like a real stiff correction in the field for something? Is there something similar in the setups that may be causing this?
A lot of people are saying treat it as a no-go and burn forward and resend. I would caution against doing that, especially on marks. It can lead to all kinds of problems, like bugging, spinning, laying down, bad attitude on marks. Remember you want the dog to be comfortable on the line and burning them on the line can lead to a real mess.
What are you doing on the line? Are you creating this by your behavior?
This is something that is real hard to give advice on via the internet, I would really need to see it. Have you simplified the setups? My people think they need super hard setups in every training session to get something out of it or make progress in training. This can lead to a dog with a poor attitude. Personally, I would simplify this a lot, fairly short wide open triple with visible gunners, lots of noise and just let the dog enjoy being successful for a while. Also build the triple. Run each one as a single, then run it as a triple.
I would strongly caution again about burning a dog that is confused or truly doesn’t remember the marks. Your there to be the mentor and teacher, not the dictator. Also view this as an opportunity to improve in your training skills. Anybody can train a trained dog, however it takes a “trainer” to examine problems and find solutions for the dog having a problem. Have fun working through it….
/Paul
This is exactly why I asked about heat cycles.. I too have a dog that is exactly how Pete describes above..
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Mine was to clarify the sequence, not to suggest that is what the OP should do.....
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No big issues or corrections I really started watching her eyes and face and it seemed like she actually does not think there is a mark out there. Starting yesterday and today I actually just went out in different places and hand threw 4 bumpers in some cover out to 50 to 60 yards. So far with those she has picked up all 4 in each set. It's not a no go like she is refusing. As I've said she loves to retrieve so for whatever reason she is confused/ forgetting its there. Going to stick with hand thrown quads until tomorrow afternoon and then set up the bumper boys and see what happens. No matter what we will be running master come Saturday morning hoping the ducks and excitement take care of the rest.
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