[Brian Urban]

Instead of trying to ask questions to learn,maybe I should just sit back watch you guyd give snarky comments to every thread. You guys seem to enjoy doing it.

 

[Tobias]

Brian,
I have been in your shoes... I think everyone has. Everyone has seen dogs' 'infractions' handled incorrectly by their trainers. Heck, I am as guilty as the next person of ineffectively communicating to my dog what I was wanting him or her to do, using too much pressure, unfair pressure, poor timing, etc etc etc...

You have to train your dog how you think is best for you both. And if you do a great job and people see that, then you might be the motivation for them to change their own methods of training.

I think everyone appreciates working with and watching a happy dog work. For a vast majority of people (I hope, anyway), that is the goal and reward of training our hunting companions.

 

[Brian Urban]

Then tell me how I'm wrong. Instead of giving me snarky comments of how I am dangerous.

Or should I just drop the money and follow him blindly?

 

[Brian Urban]

Brian,
I have been in your shoes... I think everyone has. Everyone has seen dogs' 'infractions' handled incorrectly by their trainers. Heck, I am as guilty as the next person of ineffectively communicating to my dog what I was wanting him or her to do, using too much pressure, unfair pressure, poor timing, etc etc etc...

You have to train your dog how you think is best for you both. And if you do a great job and people see that, then you might be the motivation for them to change their own methods of training.

I think everyone appreciates working with and watching a happy dog work. For a vast majority of people (I hope, anyway), that is the goal and reward of training our hunting companions.

Thank you. That was useful. Yeah, I'm just trying to find the right video for me. I don't understand where he is going with a tug tug tug. I would really love to have something different. But, like I said, I know it works.

 

[Brian Urban]

My problem is, based on the reaction I get when I ask questions here, I hesitate to join the Retriever Club. I mean it's probably going to be more of the same right?

How can I join a group of people that watched that woman nuke the dog everytime it whined? They didn't say a word. In fact they encourage her.

 

[Brian Urban]

And especially little understanding of Bill Hillmann philosophy and methods. Very unfortunate given the thread title, incorrect assertions about Hillmann and incorrect compare/contrast to Michael Ellis.

Jim

I thought I did a great job explaining what I saw as well as explaining my position about buying a video that might be more of the same. Are the other videos any different?

 

[Tobias]

the tug, so far as I could tell, is Hillmann's way of getting the dog used to the 'pressure' on the collar for when ecollar conditioning begins. The frequency of the tug/sit/tug command becomes 'normal reinforcement' to the pup so that when the light correction from the ecollar is applied it is easily and quickly associated with the 'tug' on the collar.

This is by far, I think, much more fair way to collar condition than the traditional and more common 'Lardy' method which utilizes a bit more collar pressure and heeling stick (as I recall, it has been a while since I watched a Lardy video). But that is my opinion and I think many may disagree with me.

 

[KwickLabs]

Brian, in your first post you asked, "Is everybody still only using pressure/compulsion training?"

Then, "I just was surprised, honestly, that Hillmann didn't do that stuff."

and

"I just thought it would be similar to what the protection dog guys were doing. I trained with them.
I'm just not buying that it changes when the excitement level is ramped up."

Not everyone is surprised.

And you suggested this....."But, it's obvious that the Hillmann's method works, too.

Yes, it does. I've been "doing" Hillmann's program with Pounce for over a year and it has
proven to be a "game changer" (for me). Total immersion is cool! and a strong mentor is a must!

Brian, I'm somewhat perplexed at the point(s) you are attempting make.

 

[Brian Urban]

Brian, in your first post you asked, "Is everybody still only using pressure/compulsion training?"

Then, "I just was surprised, honestly, that Hillmann didn't do that stuff."

and

"I just thought it would be similar to what the protection dog guys were doing. I trained with them.
I'm just not buying that it changes when the excitement level is ramped up."

Not everyone is surprised.

And you suggested this....."But, it's obvious that the Hillmann's method works, too.

Yes, it does. I've been "doing" Hillmann's program with Pounce for over a year and it has
proven to be a "game changer" (for me). Total immersion is cool! and a strong mentor is a must!

Brian, I'm somewhat perplexed at the point(s) you are attempting make.

Did you watch the video? There is a huge difference between training philosophy on the videos that I shared and the approach that Hillman has. I was expecting much more. That's all. I was expecting the retriever videos to be in line with the current philosophy on the obedience and thr Schutzhund training that I see from Michael Ellis.

I just see a marked improvement on what Michael Ellis is doing over what I saw on the puppy video from Hillmam

 

[T-Pines]

Instead of trying to ask questions to learn,maybe I should just sit back watch you guyd give snarky comments to every thread. You guys seem to enjoy doing it.

Asking sincere questions with an open mind is commendable. This thread hardly resembles that. Your input to this thread is less about questions and more about your promotion of Michael Ellis with incorrect misrepresention of Hillmann and other current retriever training methods. This less than subtle ambush of Hillmann, et al falls beneath snarky.

Jim

 

[Pete]

Sure. But, I cannot do justice to what Michael Ellis explains on the video.

There is a perception that forcing a dog to retrieve is the way to go. But, in reality, think about all the threads on this site about people that have screwed it up and their dogs react poorly to them. I'm convinced it's because the handler didn't explain the dog properly how to turn off pressure. Golden retrievers turning their backs on the handler?

When the excitement level ramps up and the dog turns off that portion of his brain that wants to listen to you, that is when he needs to know most went to turn off pressure. How better to explain that to him then this type of training? He understands how to turn things off because you're teaching him how to learn.

If you watch the whole video, it's not all treat training. You do get serious if you need to.. but the dog understands how you're communicating with him. That's why I like this training... For me, it's just easier.

Thats why a conditioned response is need. A conditioned dog knows what his responsibility is (sort of speak). It may start off originally using pressure and the dog learning how to shut it off. But well conditioned dogs don't think about the pressure.They re way beyond that They just do what they do and do it right because they are driven and conditioned to do things a certain way.
It takes many years to understand certain things. You won;t understand it from reading books and watching video's. Understanding and depth comes from doing and doing it a lot.

 

[crackerd]

I get the feeling that you have little knowledge of retrieving and a lot of information,which can be dangerous.

Robt., whatever possibly could've given you that idea about Our Brian! Besides the well-versed rabbiting on about doing it cruelly and antithetically wrong if you want to have a happy retriever so well-trained that it can be called off a robin fledgling at 40 paces. Oh, and the possibly libelous comments about the "localest" retriever club and second-oldest in country, and their condoning of animal abuse in front of the wives and children at a club training day. Quite a parable, that. But as Monty Python would put it, so goes The Life of Brian, so let's not crucify him for who he is - or isn't.

MG

 

[Brian Urban]

Asking sincere questions with an open mind is commendable. This thread hardly resembles that. Your input to this thread is less about questions and more about your promotion of Michael Ellis with incorrect misrepresention of Hillmann and other current retriever training methods. This less than subtle ambush of Hillmann, et al falls beneath snarky.

Jim

Is it?

You honestly see no value in the training that I presented? I'm supposed to blindly drop my money down on the full video series when I I'm not happy with what I saw on the puppy video?

 

[Brian Urban]

Robt., whatever possibly could've given you that idea about Our Brian! Besides the well-versed rabbiting on about doing it cruelly and antithetically wrong if you want to have a happy retriever so well-trained that it can be called off a robin fledgling at 40 paces. Oh, and the possibly libelous comments about the "localest" retriever club and second-oldest in country, and their condoning of animal abuse in front of the wives and children at a club training day. Quite a parable, that. But as Monty Python would put it, so goes The Life of Brian, so let's not crucify him for who he is - or isn't.

MG

I know right? Alex and Victoria were upset when they saw the dog getting nuked. It freak them out too.

 

[Tobias]

Brian, if you are going to use an ecollar with your pup... then you will be best advised to find a way to cc your pup fairly. IMO, Hillmann has shown us the best way to achieve this.
If you are not going to collar train, then I would not suggest his or other training videos that utilize them.

If you are wanting to utilize positive only training... or no collar training, this might be a good source of info.

http://www.fetchmasters.com/denver/dog-training-services/positive-gun-dog-training

 

[Ted Shih]

Brian

You have a predisposition about making sweeping generalizations about things without education, knowledge, or experience.

Ted

 

[Pete]

Did you watch the video? There is a huge difference between training philosophy on the videos that I shared and the approach that Hillman has. I was expecting much more. That's all. I was expecting the retriever videos to be in line with the current philosophy on the obedience and thr Schutzhund training that I see from Michael Ellis.

I just see a marked improvement on what Michael Ellis is doing over what I saw on the puppy video from Hillmam

Let me give you an example
I start puppies similair in appearance to how schutzhund does it. I also do things similar in appearance to what Hillman does. I also do things similar in appearance to what Lardy does, I also do things similar in appearance to what Mertan does and I also make stuff up as I go along.
Give the dog what it needs when it needs it and it will learn. it doesn't matter who does what. They all apply principles of learning.
Just make sure you give the dog what it needs along the way so when you get to the advanced stuff and the dog needs a correction or re enforcement in a particular context, that he will be able to understand what your communicating.
Also what Ted said

pete

 

[polmaise]

I thought I did a great job explaining what I saw as well as explaining my position about buying a video that might be more of the same. Are the other videos any different?

If you are looking for some positive feedback why not post a video of Your heel work with your dog? I'm sure the good guys on here will help to guide you.
Videos will not train your dog to walk to heel . You will .

 

[Tobias]

Is it?

You honestly see no value in the training that I presented? I'm supposed to blindly drop my money down on the full video series when I I'm not happy with what I saw on the puppy video?

I did not watch the video yet, so am not in a position to comment on it. when I have time to watch it in it's entirety, I will.

 

[T-Pines]

I have yet to meet someone who has studied Hillmann material more than I have. I have watched and studied Ellis, although not nearly to the same extent. I find Ellis to be entirely compatible with Hillmann.

Hillmann's Art &Science was not produced for a sophisticated audience. Not for the performance dog, seminar attending, Michael Ellis Institute crowd. It's primary goal is to help new puppy owners, with little background in successful puppy rearing, have a good outcome with their new pet companion and keep it from becoming another shelter statistic.

If you want the thorough Hillmann philosophy and the early retriever training methodology, you need the Training a Retriever Puppy DVD. Study it.

Jim