[crackerd]

Intriguing as I’m on the cusp of FFing the least food-driven gundog pup of any breed I’ve had in 30 years, and a Ft Lab prospect to boot. Not an eating disorder, just has other orders of higher consumptive priority as a pup—sticks, foam bedding, pillows, etc.

Pete, WWKD? - What Would Koehler Do?🐾🐾🐾🐾🐾🐶

MG

 

[Steve Shaver]

It's about understanding drives and injecting the 4 quadrants of OC at the proper time , with the right amount of motivation in order to maximize learning in a shorter amount of time, retaining animation, and keeping conflict between dog and trainer almost non existent..My guess Steve most trainers don't think or care about this stuff. And it doesn't matter,because like you their dogs still get well trained without excess manipulation but because of thinking behaviorally when it comes to dogs I have been able to figure out some really cool new stuff about dog behavior.and how dogs actually think while in an agitated state of mind, I So for me it is worth it.
Pete

I have never even heard a technical explanation of "behavioral training" but this is exactly the way I approach training but I dont use treats to do it. Well I guess thats not entirely true. I am the treat, the bumper is the treat, a dead old smelly duck is the treat. If I did not feed my dog for two or three day put a big bowl of food down then throw a duck or even a bumper even my piggiest eater would leave that food in a heart beat.
I mean really what is FF all about if it isnt teaching the dog to avoid conflict with the trainer? I avoid conflict between me and the dog as much as possible even during FF. Im all about teaching rather than forcing but Not afraid to use some force or pressure when a taught lesson is being avoided. I just cant wrap my head around using treats for training. The treat is avoiding that force or pressure and getting what they want, the bird, bumper and my approval. I think not using treat is simpler and more black and white to teach a dog something.

 

[Pete]

Intriguing as I’m on the cusp of FFing the least food-driven gundog pup of any breed I’ve had in 30 years, and a Ft Lab prospect to boot. Not an eating disorder, just has other orders of higher consumptive priority as a pup—sticks, foam bedding, pillows, etc.

Pete, WWKD? - What Would Koehler Do?🐾🐾🐾🐾🐾🐶

MG

Yank and crank Mike. Sometimes you can't use food .because of low FD. If they aint got it in them you can't put it in them. But Mike, many dogs need to have their food drive developed and expectation of incoming food sharpened. It;s crazy but sometimes it takes dogs a few days to learn how to accept and eat a hot dog. I **** you not. So Mike don't give up. You have the experience to make this happen. (chucke) Remember to de stress the dog first because a stressed dog doesn't like to eat. Now here is a brain twister for ya. Hint. FF and stress go together
Good luck Mike (.
Pete

 

[Pete]

I have never even heard a technical explanation of "behavioral training" but this is exactly the way I approach training but I dont use treats to do it. Well I guess thats not entirely true. I am the treat, the bumper is the treat, a dead old smelly duck is the treat. If I did not feed my dog for two or three day put a big bowl of food down then throw a duck or even a bumper even my piggiest eater would leave that food in a heart beat.

That;s contradictory Steve, You only utilize 2 of the drives and dismiss food. I made that definition up since I have never heard of it either, but I was trying to explain what it is. During the hold and FF process most do not use any of the drives but actually diminish them at least temporarily toward the object used., Often A few weeks after FF and when their new behavior is normalized full drive is restored and may be more. What happens to an average dogs Marking in a typical program when it's going through the yard and why?
Pete

 

[AllAroundLab]

Has anyone ever tried incorporating treats during force Fetch?
Pete

I am trying with my youngest pup. She has it down with dumbbell and bumpers, now moving onto birds. The treats are more for bumpers than birds, because bumpers are not as naturally fun, lol. Not every time either, once she knows what is expected it is random. Eventually just on occasion to reward an exceptionally nice delivery to heel.

It is also a good way to proof a hold. If you can hold the treat out in front of their nose and they make sure to hang on to their bumper they probably have a pretty good idea what hold actually means.

I use a marker word of course to mark the correct behavior, otherwise the dog wouldn't know what the reward was for and might make the wrong association. The marker word comes when they grab/hold, never after the bumper leaves the mouth. She has to hold until I take the bumper and give an out command.

 

[KwickLabs]

OK, I just had to do this. Watch the entire "presentation".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VC-6DHjo7YA

 

[polmaise]

I often struggle with the concept that many have, to teach a retriever how to retrieve.

 

[Tobias]

Stonnie has a lot of videos out there. He is well spoken and concise, which is really good for people who are utilizing his videos for training their own dogs. It was interesting to note that both labs already knew the 'fetch' command and I wonder how many people think they are going to be able to point at an object on the ground and say 'fetch it up' and their dog is going to figure it out.

 

[AllAroundLab]

I suppose it would only have value ,if the dog was hungry , or greedy at that moment in training? Sure makes the trainer feel accomplished in the task.

I'd only feel accomplished if someone handed me a treat, maybe cheesecake bites.

Obviously it wouldn't be helpful if the dog is not a food hound.

 

[polmaise]

I wonder how many people think they are going to be able to point at an object on the ground and say 'fetch it up' and their dog is going to figure it out.

Lol, In my experience , 'Fido' for the first time of anyone in the world pointing at an object on the ground and say 'anything in any language' , the dog is most likely to look at your finger !lolx

 

[drunkenpoacher]

Lol, In my experience , 'Fido' for the first time of anyone in the world pointing at an object on the ground and say 'anything in any language' , the dog is most likely to look at your finger !lolx

And if there is often a treat in that hand, good luck getting the dog to focus on anything else.

 

[AllAroundLab]

And if there is often a treat in that hand, good luck getting the dog to focus on anything else.

Wow, all my dogs have learned that they need to do something besides stare at the treat to get the treat, they must be geniuses.

 

[drunkenpoacher]

they must be geniuses.

I sure hope so but I never see them at the meetings
If treats work for you, that's great.

My dogs have always been highly motivated to get the bird or bumper.
They don't expect any treats when training.
Coming back in the house after poopin is a different story, they expect a treat because they usually get one.
Quite a few times I have fed Jake at a field trial. He is always reluctant to eat at first, thinking or maybe hoping it's his turn to run again. I think he would reject any treat in most training situations.

Edit; Jake and I are in constant violation of the official Golden Retriever dress code. Jake never wears a scarf and I never have a bag of treats on my belt.

 

[crackerd]

Stonnie has a lot of videos out there. He is well spoken and concise, which is really good for people who are utilizing his videos for training their own dogs. It was interesting to note that both labs already knew the 'fetch' command and I wonder how many people think they are going to be able to point at an object on the ground and say 'fetch it up' and their dog is going to figure it out.

He shoulda had a V-8...engine, to replace that poor Lab’s Yugo horsepower that his methods seem to have, er, imparted.

Kwick, you hayseed trainer agent provocateur😇 - how many hundreds of thousands of saccharine and saracastic syllables did this joker go through on the ‘Fuge rebutting and denouncing even folks who were trying to help him be a little less simple with his sales pitch to the retriever hoi polloi. In the end, my takeaway mirrored Polmaise’s amusement from an abject lesson in retrieving.

MG

 

[polmaise]

I'd only feel accomplished if someone handed me a treat, maybe cheesecake bites.

Obviously it wouldn't be helpful if the dog is not a food hound.

Depends on what the dog or trainer is hungry for? ..I don't like cheesecake bites, but that doesn't mean I don't like food?..call me old fashioned, but I'm sure pretty much' all dogs do what works for them !. If there is a 'Trick' or 'Treat' to it , then "I have always made them think it was their idea in training", psst! don't tell the dogs I set it up that way or the Cat is out the bag. lol
'Making a dog do something is easy' .Making a dog 'Want' to do something is Training. (imho). If anyone's process achieves this then great!

 

[drunkenpoacher]

Making a dog 'Want' to do something is Training. (imho).

Agreed, and for the reward of doing it not for the treat that follows.

Rather than "making a dog want" I would describe it as teaching them the correct way to do the things they want to do already, like retrieving.

 

[Tobias]

Using food as a motivator to 'make a dog want to do something' is no different than using other motivators such as praise (pack drive) and fun bumpers (prey drive). Maybe for some dogs those two don't work, but food does?

Would you train a dog with out praise? Or without it having fun? or some sort of reward?

 

[KwickLabs]

I have a theory based on viewing the use of a "trash gripper".

Any guesses?

It would have been very useful with my last puppy.

 

[polmaise]

Using food as a motivator to 'make a dog want to do something' is no different than using other motivators such as praise (pack drive) and fun bumpers (prey drive). Maybe for some dogs those two don't work, but food does?

In context? ..Often the notion to get the motion is 'Lure' ?..Never seen a bona fidae retriever that 'wants to retrieve' be highly rewarded by food when it 'gets a bird in it's gub' and exchanges for food, oops yes I have . lolx . ''Shaping a behavior such as 'hold' or 'delivery to hand' or 'Sit' is great...move on .

 

[drunkenpoacher]

Using food as a motivator to 'make a dog want to do something'

If it works for you great, I am all for it.
For me, anything beyond teaching a pup to sit, kennel or get her butt back in the house, treats are a distraction from the lesson. Even with basics like Sit, it is more a pup performing a trick (or being tricked) than really learning a command.