[Bob Gutermuth]

John, I'm glad to hear you say that especially after that 500 yard retired bird you threw in the Q at Rebel ridge a couple years back!! The money bird in the Open at the bowl was shorter.

 

[john fallon]

Come to RR anytime Bob and bring your range finder and a fist full of cash.
Leave youy dogs at home I'll bring one that can mark.

john

 

[Angie B]

I think two sided heeling is more useful in hunt test because everything is up close...at field trial distances I am not so sure if it helps or not...if it did I would think more people would use it...I do think it makes some handlers feel better.

You see it used by FTr's alot more in other parts of the country then here in the southwest. Kinda interesting.....

Angie

 

[Jim Pickering]

Originally Posted by Jerry (5 major points & 8 minor points):
On the frequently used grounds about 6 miles from me, distance is about the only "factor" involved in one field.

Originally Posted by David Didier (1 major point & 0 minor points):
I would probably always disagree that distance is the "only" factor unless it's a single mark. Maybe only terrain factor but the marks themselves can be factors - I'm thinking you'd agree with that.

I have to agree with my old training buddy, Jerry. Unfortunately I see more and more trial grounds that have no terrain or cover changes leaving only distance and wind, if any, to test a dog’s natural marking ability. Also unfortunately I see more and more judges who share David’s opinion that one can test natural marking ability by using contrived test which actually test skills acquired through training more than natural marking ability and often penalize the dogs with the better nose.

 

[Jim Pickering]

Question, at that distance are dogs actually marking the bird or are they just running to the gunner? I just went out and set up one of wingers at 600 yds and shot it off, I could barely pick the bird out and I have 20/20 vision, can these dogs see that much better then us?

If you go to a field trial and watch the dogs closely as one should when judging, you will note that a significant percentage of the dog mark the guns and not the birds on marks of even moderate distances. On medium to long distance marks, watch how many dogs run to the gun stand and start their hunt from there. The more experienced dogs can work it out very quickly from the gun stan which looks quite good on paper.

Just my humble opinion but I think it is much easier to trick a dog that marks birds over one that marks guns.

 

[Patrick Johndrow]

I have to agree with my old training buddy, Jerry. Unfortunately I see more and more trial grounds that have no terrain or cover changes leaving only distance and wind, if any, to test a dog’s natural marking ability. Also unfortunately I see more and more judges who share David’s opinion that one can test natural marking ability by using contrived test which actually test skills acquired through training more than natural marking ability and often penalize the dogs with the better nose.

But I have seen areas where there was great cover and the judges shied away from it for whatever reason. I will say Ed ALWAYS puts on a good test…I personally have never seen one of his test that was unfair, to easy or contrary.

At a trial up in Colorado two years ago there was an open mark that could been seen on occasion from the line and then retired. I watched a pro (who will remain nameless) have dog after dog pick up the bird. I asked the pro if he thought his dogs were actually seeing the mark and he said “no…but they know where I am sending them” For the record the pros dogs that did the test were all really NICE all age dogs.

 

[greg magee]

The distance could be dramatically decreased if we just went back to using pheasants. But then you have to deal with all the crying that goes along with that. Give me pheasants and we will get all the answers we need without going past 200 yds. Not a big fan of ducks on land regardless. And before everybody starts yapping here I know the monetary benefits to the club about lasting longer and all of the other plusses about using ducks for everything. I think it should be mandatory to use pheasants on land. Greg

 

[john fallon]

Hens in the Spring?;-)

john

 

[Jerry]

Hens in the Spring?;-)

john

Dam John, you're gonna get Lanse Brown REALLY riled up now.

Jerry

 

[Bob Gutermuth]

I like pheasants as well, but there are a couple of problems with that wonderful bird: Very few people know how to throw them properly, darn few guns can kill them reliably,(especially if using steel) some judges use fliers on critical falls where they should use a popper bird, and some judges, I've thrown and shot for them, want to leave the blinders on the cockbirds until they see how the birds fly like a Hoyt Wilhelm knuckle ball.

 

[2tall]

Newbie question....Why are pheasants better at shorter distances? The pro I work with uses both, I had not noticed any difference in the way the dog performs. The first time I dont think he was sure what the pheasant was, but he brought it back anyway. What difference in using them or ducks when deciding distance?

 

[Judy Chute]

Bob..."Very few people know how to throw them (pheasant) properly, ...." ?

Thanks!!

Judy

 

[Bob Gutermuth]

Generally speaking, a dog must actually mark a pheasant. They have so little scent, esp hens in spring that you won't see many 'wind saves'.

 

[2tall]

Ok! So that totally explains the drill we were working on. A group of us were working together in a corn field with a lot of beaten down stubble and cover. I could not understand why some were having so much difficulty with the relatively short distances. (I found throwing the pheasants easier as they were lighter). When a dog failed to pick up his bird, I was asked to rethrow. I could not find that sucker until I was standing right on top of it, it blended in so well. So if they also have less "scent" hence the point of the exercise! (Where is the little light bulb thingy) I am only beginning to ask the right questions to the answers I am being given.

 

[Jerry]

Most people that are against using hen pheasants refer to their natural camo, lack of scent, and the fact that they are not a LEGAL gamebird anywhere in the wild.

I'm not familiar with EVERY law regarding the hens so I may be wrong.

Jerry

 

[Bob Gutermuth]

Jerry, pigeons aren't 'legal game birds' either, but they were legal in hunt tests until a few years ago and in minor stakes at field trials until last year. I'd much rather use hen pheasants.

 

[Joe S.]

What about on an MH hunt test? What is the farthest mark/blind?

At Tidewater RC (VA) several years back, there was a 300 yard water blind in the spring and then a 225 yard water blind (over the scented point) in the fall...

Judges Judge, Dogs Dog, Handlers Handle Regards,

Joe S.

 

[john fallon]

Jerry, pigeons aren't 'legal game birds' either, but they were legal in hunt tests until a few years ago and in minor stakes at field trials until last year. I'd much rather use hen pheasants.

Not completly true Bob. "In general parlance the terms "dove" and "pigeon" are used somewhat interchangeably"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dove

 

[Bob Gutermuth]

Dictionaries aside, Mourning Doves ARE legal game birds in some states, and as migratory birds are under the jurisdiction of the USWFS. The only place I am aware of that classifies pigeons, AKA roof rats is NJ ,where they are listed as song birds, and as such were verboten there when we used to run ACC WD tests in that state.

 

[Kenneth Niles Bora]

the bird we all call a pigeon, is a Rock Dove. Just went from cliff living to parking buildings.