[Bob Gutermuth]

Wasn't there an attempt to limit the distance a gun or set of guns could move to retire last year? I have seen more than a few retired gun setups where the guns had to be track stars to get retired due to the distance from the mark to the hide. I've also seen stakes where the funs were retiring whiel the bird at other stations were going down.

 

[Ted Shih]

Wasn't there an attempt to limit the distance a gun or set of guns could move to retire last year? I have seen more than a few retired gun setups where the guns had to be track stars to get retired due to the distance from the mark to the hide. I've also seen stakes where the funs were retiring whiel the bird at other stations were going down.

I think that the proposed rule limited the guns to moving 10 yards

I do not know the outcome of the vote

Ted

 

[Marvin S]

I have been competitive in the game long enough to get that part. Thats not the point.

When the last bird down has gunners literally running to a holding blind, drawing the attention of every running dog to the extent they follow the kids to the blind therefore detracting from their marking, actually causing a pop on one dog vs going directly to the mark, I question this.

I guess as a judge myself I wonder why I work so hard to do the right thing when so many competitors out there just dont care. Maybe I take this too seriously, maybe I should lighten up?

The movement did not keep dogs from seeing the mark as it was thrown. What it appeared to do is draw the dogs down the bank to the backside of the holding blind vs. angling into the water and swimming for the bird directly.
It was a dead bird, flyer was out of order.
What would the protest be? The members of the FT committee helped set the test and were present for the entire test.
I dont agree with the mechanics of the mark but no other competitor seemed to care, all dogs did the same so all were most likely judged equally, all but the dog that popped. The dog that popped was a young dog and with more experience will deal better next time, but I question if there should be a next time, no doubt that there will be.

I asked these questions for my own understanding. I am not trying to hang anyone out to dry, when I stand with the book I expect some one to be watching as well. And maybe some other new judges will see this and think about it.

As I know some of the judges involved I will make a point of asking them rather than sitting on this thread critiicizing something unseen.

 

[Angie B]

Just curious how long the mark was and what stake it was?

Angie

 

[Jim Pickering]

Without further comment about how supremely silly it is to retire the go-bird............IMHO, of course......
kg

It actually works quite well if the circumstances & mechanics are correct. Have used it a couple of times with interesting results.

I have to agree with Keith on this one.

Marvin, I would love to here about your setup where you needed to retire the gun(s) for a go bird. I cannot concieve how this could be done without deceiving the dogs or why it might be done for reasons other than deceiving the dogs. However, I am open to learning something new.

 

[FOM]

I have a "dumb question" - do not most teach "in route" retiring when teaching young dogs about retired guns?

Now granted "running gunners" is a whole different matter - but calmly walking to retire, isn't that something most dogs understand?

FOM

 

[Jerry]

Don't think I've ever asked a gun to retire while the dog was enroute to the first bird. It's always "when the dog picks up that other bird, then retire".

Some handlers will select the "retired gun" BEFORE it retires but that decision usually ends up biting most of them in the butt.

And also don't remember ever throwing an out of order Flyer. But I'm one that feels the flyer is nothing more than a test of steadiness due to the wide area of the falls, not marking ability. "It's the last bird down, now got get it and we will see how much of an effect it has on your dogs ability to remember the others."

But that's just me.

Jerry

 

[Granddaddy]

Another use of gunner movement that seemed intentional to confuse the dogs: at 450+ yds the gunner walked to the left for 2-3 steps when the bird was called for as viewed from the line then turned 180 & threw the bird at a hard angle back to the right. Gunner then retired (after the dog picked up short flyer) across the dog's most direct path (straight) to the bird such that his hide position was to the right of the bird thrown fall area. Since the bird at that distance under those lighting conditions was near-impossible to see, the dogs were likely relying on the movement of the gunner to determine the AOF. Out of a relatively large field of dogs, vast majority first ran well to the left of the bird & gun position then established a long & wide hunt to find the bird if found at all. Of the 70+ dogs run, field was reduced to approx 25. This technique was employed during a 2007 AA stake employing a double set-up. I had seen this technique employed at another AA stake previously where the gunner on the long mark emerged from a wooded area, walked several steps out from the woods, then threw the bird back toward the woods from which he came & then retired into those same woods.

 

[Charles C.]

Another use of gunner movement that seemed intentional to confuse the dogs: at 450+ yds the gunner walked to the left for 2-3 steps when the bird was called for as viewed from the line then turned 180 & threw the bird at a hard angle back to the right. Gunner then retired (after the dog picked up short flyer) across the dog's most direct path (straight) to the bird such that his hide position was to the right of the bird thrown fall area. Since the bird at that distance under those lighting conditions was near-impossible to see, the dogs were likely relying on the movement of the gunner to determine the AOF. Out of a relatively large field of dogs, vast majority first ran well to the left of the bird & gun position then established a long & wide hunt to find the bird if found at all. Of the 70+ dogs run, field was reduced to approx 25. This technique was employed during a 2007 AA stake employing a double set-up. I had seen this technique employed at another AA stake previously where the gunner on the long mark emerged from a wooded area, walked several steps out from the woods, then threw the bird back toward the woods from which he came & then retired into those same woods.

That's dumb.

 

[Marvin S]

I have to agree with Keith on this one.

Marvin, I would love to here about your setup where you needed to retire the gun(s) for a go bird. I cannot concieve how this could be done without deceiving the dogs or why it might be done for reasons other than deceiving the dogs. However, I am open to learning something new.

The go-bird was the longest of 3 falls at about 180 yards through some very good terrain, relatively flat with slight rolls. The gun station disappeared from sight of the dog at about 20 yards & remained out of sight till about 100 yards into the retrieve. The station was instructed to retire when the dog disappeared from their sight - 1 step backward into the holding blind & sit down - it was a very efficient test & interesting to watch. We got more answers on that bird than the other 2 so it was quite effective.

We then did a blind in that general direction (after the marks were complete) about 30 yards from that line & into a slight grade. Amazing results - dogs would start for the blind, think they were going back to the mark & just tune out the whistles.

Again - it requires the right set of conditions & terrain. I like to use what the grounds will give you which makes it difficult for people to train on a specialty test. Never rule out what may fit.

I do not like retired guns where the gunners have to move any appreciable distance - but have not judged in some of the places where things are done like retiring on a 4-wheeler way out of the area.

Hope that explains what was done.

 

[Jerry]

Picture this and tell me what you think.

First bird down, 225-250 yds, thrown parallel to a shoreline, away from the dog. Then the right hand bird is thrown 275-300 yards up against a treeline. Finally, the live gunners and thrower march out to a position DIRECTLY on line to the first bird and shoot the flyer.

Flyer was not a problem.

The problem was navigating AROUND the flyer gunners to get to the middle bird.

Jerry

 

[Marvin S]

Picture this and tell me what you think.

First bird down, 225-250 yds, thrown parallel to a shoreline, away from the dog. Then the right hand bird is thrown 275-300 yards up against a treeline. Finally, the live gunners and thrower march out to a position DIRECTLY on line to the first bird and shoot the flyer.

Flyer was not a problem.

The problem was navigating AROUND the flyer gunners to get to the middle bird.

Jerry

I ran a test like that about 40 years ago where you had to go right over the flyer station to get the memory bird. Wasn't that long is the only difference.

 

[DEDEYE]

I have a "dumb question" - do not most teach "in route" retiring when teaching young dogs about retired guns?

Now granted "running gunners" is a whole different matter - but calmly walking to retire, isn't that something most dogs understand?

FOM

We do lots of that......

 

[Jim Pickering]

The go-bird was the longest of 3 falls at about 180 yards through some very good terrain, relatively flat with slight rolls. The gun station disappeared from sight of the dog at about 20 yards & remained out of sight till about 100 yards into the retrieve. The station was instructed to retire when the dog disappeared from their sight - 1 step backward into the holding blind & sit down - it was a very efficient test & interesting to watch. We got more answers on that bird than the other 2 so it was quite effective.

Thanks for the explanation, Marvin. The scenario you describe is what I suspected you might have done. This is something that might be effective in training to get a dog to concentrate on the mark verses the gun, but IMHO constitutes a trick test for a field trial and in direct violation of the rule forbidding the movement of guns to deceive the dogs.

Whether a dog runs at guns (many do) or at the mark, virtually all use the gun as a point of reference if the gun remains exposed. If the gun is retired before the dog is sent then it cannot use the gun as a point of reference and must rely on some other reference to identify the AOF. When a dog is sent for a mark with the gun exposed and then the gun is hidden while the dog is in route but out of line of sight of the gun due to terrain or cover the dog expects to re-acquire the gun as it approaches the area of the fall. If the gun is not where the dog expected it to be, the dog may well continue on looking for the gun, its point of reference for that AOF. One could certainly argue that the dog should mark the bird and the movement of guns before, during or after the dog is sent to retrieve is a non-issue; however, that is not consistent with my observation of how dogs function, and just maybe one reason for the rule prohibiting the movement of guns to deceive the dogs.

 

[Barry]

I have to agree with Keith on this one.

Marvin, I would love to here about your setup where you needed to retire the gun(s) for a go bird. I cannot concieve how this could be done without deceiving the dogs or why it might be done for reasons other than deceiving the dogs. However, I am open to learning something new.

I find it quite interesting that one could not concieve that you could effectivly retire a go bird. How about if they just took one step back and sat down behind a holding blind. I see nothing the matter with this situation, with an out of order flyer. If the dog choses to select the flyer or select the short retired bird than you still have one gun retired. Handlers will always try to surcumvent the test anyway they can to gain an advantage. People always try to blow this moving the retired gun thing out of proportion, for their dogs inability to mark the bird. And I'm not talking about running 20 yards on a full sprint to retire.
The same thing holds true on retiring to far from where you throw the bird. Some times there is not a place to hide someone, with out digging a hole it's just as easy to retire back to a better place to hide. I see nothing the matter with retiring 20 or so yards away. After all I don't see anyone complaining about shooting a bird out of a winger 40 yards and retiring 10 yards away, which in my judgement is much more unfair.

 

[Barry]

From the current FT rulebook, Standard Procedure, Chapter 8:



I don't quite know where to start here....

The above pretty much gives all the guidance anyone who ever sits in the chair would need with regard to movement of gunners/throwers BEFORE THE DOG IS SENT. It shouldn't happen. The Standard Procedure gives guidance on how it is to be avoided.

That said, Angie's right. Somehow, the above passage still doesn't keep it from EVER happening.

Now, from the other side of the coin....when else are the gunners supposed to move? When the dog is released to retrieve, the gunners should move THEN to either sit down where instructed or retire to where instructed. If they're moving any other time, there are mechanical issues that need to be addressed by the judges or the stake marshal.

That's all I've got with no more specific situational info to work with.

kg

You know you might want to read this rule again, I don't think it says anything along the lines of " it shouldn't happen" and I think that's where the problem lies. It makes mention to the fact that the guns shall remain silent as not to distract, and that movement should be kept to a minimium as not to interfere with the dogs ability to see the birds go down. Unless I miss something here the rule pretty well sums it up?

 

[John Gassner]

I agree with Jim Pickering. I think Marvin's example constitutes a trick test. Will it get answers? Yes!

As Mitch Patterson and many others have said "it's easy to trick a dog"....the trick is to test the dog!


John

 

[Ted Shih]

I don't think I would do what Marvin suggests,

But I don't view it as a trick test ....

Nor do I view a quick step behind a holding blind as the dogs are sent as a trick

Haven't done it ... yet ... but, don't view it as a trick test

Different strokes for different folks, I suspect

 

[Ted Shih]

Here is what I view as a distracting movement of the guns, even though the distraction did not manifest itself on the line

Triple

Money bird is up a draw ... 300 yards

Everyone picks it up last

No real interaction with flyer and short retired bird

Guns move 30 yards down into a hollow and sit

They are not retired
Dogs drive through draw

See guns

Dogs check out guns

Some a short time
Some a long time

If your dog checked out the guns too long, you were gone ... even if you got the birds

 

[Doug Main]

Thanks for the explanation, Marvin. The scenario you describe is what I suspected you might have done. This is something that might be effective in training to get a dog to concentrate on the mark verses the gun, but IMHO constitutes a trick test for a field trial and in direct violation of the rule forbidding the movement of guns to deceive the dogs.

Whether a dog runs at guns (many do) or at the mark, virtually all use the gun as a point of reference if the gun remains exposed. If the gun is retired before the dog is sent then it cannot use the gun as a point of reference and must rely on some other reference to identify the AOF. When a dog is sent for a mark with the gun exposed and then the gun is hidden while the dog is in route but out of line of sight of the gun due to terrain or cover the dog expects to re-acquire the gun as it approaches the area of the fall. If the gun is not where the dog expected it to be, the dog may well continue on looking for the gun, its point of reference for that AOF. One could certainly argue that the dog should mark the bird and the movement of guns before, during or after the dog is sent to retrieve is a non-issue; however, that is not consistent with my observation of how dogs function, and just maybe one reason for the rule prohibiting the movement of guns to deceive the dogs.

There is a difference between a gunner simply hiding (retiring) and a gunner moving to a different location away from the mark. There is nothing in the rules about when the gunners can move.

I think there is an expectations issue with all retired guns. However, I don't think that makes retiring enroute a "trick". Some dogs focus on the gunner more than others. If they are focused on the gunner, then any retired gun is a trick. I think most train so much on retiring gunners enroute that it's no big deal.