[Patrick Johndrow]

Will try what?

I guess you're saying that it's hard for them to check down last after they have already gone long twice, even after the handler has TRIED to get them to check down 2nd?

Most one and two dog guys would never try it.


That is why it is so difficult to teach.

 

[Captain Mike D]

Field trial marking concept- check down bird(short retired) after going long twice.

Dave Rorem emphasized how hard he works at training this concept at his seminar this past weekend

 

[captdan]

Putting the toilet seat down after they are done and washing their paws. (males) We use the praise/reward method.--Golddogs

ROFLMAO!!!

Dan Rice

 

[Guest]

Dave Rorem emphasized how hard he works at training this concept at his seminar this past weekend

What is the purpose/benefit of picking it up in that order?

 

[George C. Tull]

The answer is still TEACHING PROPER BASICS, you don't get them right...........the previous 4 pages are a futal effort.................;-)

I agree. Most problems can be directed back to the basics. If you can't get from the blind to the line you ain't got squat. $.02

 

[Granddaddy]

What is the purpose/benefit of picking it up in that order?

I'm still trying to understand why you would go two long before attempting to p/u a short retired - esp as a training concept.......?

 

[Captain Mike D]

I'm still trying to understand why you would go two long before attempting to p/u a short retired - esp as a training concept.......?

While I am not a FT guy I can see the benefits of having a dog that has been trained to trust its eyes and depth perception to check down on a mark. How better to teach an advanced dog than to train on the concept in a tough training scenario seen again and again?

As far as in which order they would be picked up in a trial, I would think it would a pretty good feeling to know I had a dog that could do it either way.
Others can answer better than me on that regard.

 

[Guest]

I'm still trying to understand why you would go two long before attempting to p/u a short retired - esp as a training concept.......?

The only thing I can come up with IF the wind is right (i.e., NOT coming off the short bird en route to the long) is that if the dog is hellbent to go long and get an out of order flyer or just hellbent to go long and then needs to check up 3rd...

If Dave does it, I trust that it works and has a purpose. Just curious to hear what it is!!

-K

 

[Paul Rainbolt]

I'm still trying to understand why you would go two long before attempting to p/u a short retired - esp as a training concept.......?

In training I would set to insure the dog goes long twice or three times before picking up the short bird. I want the dog to learn to check down on its own, like it will have to in a trial. A good AA judges will not make selecting easy if possible at all.

 

[Granddaddy]

I understand it could happen. But I think I would rather build a habit - as a concept to get the short gun after going long for the go-bird. Most of my dogs have at one time or another been sent for a bird at a trial & picked up another. Of course that made it very challenging to get the dog back on the bird they missed. But I don't think that would be the reason Rorem would teach two long birds prior to a short retired.

Captain Mike, no doubt checking down after a long retrieve is something ALL AA dogs must learn to handle routinely but the generally accepted practice is to p/u the long go-bird, then p/u shortest to longest as std practice. Another practice is to pick up stand out guns before picking up retireds but again this is generally done shortest to longest.

This is why I'm intersted to understand the 'why' behind the two long before the short retired as a training concept. I understand it might happen at a trial but that alone is not reason to train for it as a concept no more than training to ignore a short flyer last bird down go-bird. Sure there are set-ups where doing so might offer some theoretical advantage but the risk is undoing other concepts which have much greater value.

Slim, if you can get Rorem's "why" I'd sure like to understand it.

 

[captdan]

The training concept is base, I believe, on the idea that dogs have a harder time going short after going long. Twice long then would be twice as difficult. Long single, long single, dig out the short retired. I would not expect to see this concept done as a multiple unless selection is the issue.

Dan

 

[Paul Rainbolt]

I understand it could happen. But I think I would rather build a habit - as a concept to get the short gun after going long for the go-bird. Most of my dogs have at one time or another been sent for a bird at a trial & picked up another. Of course that made it very challenging to get the dog back on the bird they missed. But I don't think that would be the reason Rorem would teach two long birds prior to a short retired.

Captain Mike, no doubt checking down after a long retrieve is something ALL AA dogs must learn to handle routinely but the generally accepted practice is to p/u the long go-bird, then p/u shortest to longest as std practice. Another practice is to pick up stand out guns before picking up retireds but again this is generally done shortest to longest.

This is why I'm intersted to understand the 'why' behind the two long before the short retired as a training concept. I understand it might happen at a trial but that alone is not reason to train for it as a concept no more than training to ignore a short flyer last bird down go-bird. Sure there are set-ups where doing so might offer some theoretical advantage but the risk is undoing other concepts which have much greater value.

Slim, if you can get Rorem's "why" I'd sure like to understand it.

It happens a lot at trials. I cant speak for Rorem, I know him from trials were we're competing and that's it. But I can tell you this, he wants to win and that's "why" he trains on it. I also would like to hear how Dave Rorem, Danny Farmer and all the successful pros and Amateurs train on it. One thing for sure they all train on it on a regular basis.

Its been working for me so I'll keep it in my maintenance program for my AA dog.

 

[Captain Mike D]

I would not expect to see this concept done as a multiple unless selection is the issue.

Dan

After reviewing the notes I took and rereading Chapter 6 of the Art and Science of Handling Retrievers I see that selection IS the reason Dave trains for the dog to pick up the short retired last.

Quote by Dave-"Over time Rex trained myself and other trainers to teach the dog to pick up the short bird last in training quite often. In doing so, you start to teach the dog to be good at that short retired gun while getting it last. Then, because the dog has gotten so good at getting the short bird last, he may voluntarily want to select that short bird out on his own."
He then mentions Hiwood Apache Scout saying that he had a very difficult time in checking down to pick up short birds. After consistent work where the dog was only allowed to pick the short one up last he became good at it.
Quote by Dave-" I noticed that he started to get good at getting it last. Then he started to be succesfull in getting it last on weekends. Next he started selecting it out on his own. He became one of the best I've ever seen at getting the short bird any time. He became easy to work with on line with short retired birds. At a Field Trial, when he wanted the big flyer second I was actually comfortable in letting him go for the short one last."

Dave referred to the ability as "ideal selection, defined as getting any bird at any time at any place and feeling comfortable enough to do it".
Final sentence in the chapter-"When you can master ideal selection you can master any test that is out there because the dogs will work with you to get any bird next"

 

[captdan]

Great post!! It really illuminates the idea. Thanks.

Dan

 

[Granddaddy]

...I also would like to hear how Dave Rorem, Danny Farmer and all the successful pros and Amateurs train on it. One thing for sure they all train on it on a regular basis.....

I'm surely not so confident in my abilities to question Rorem's approach, rather just trying to understand why. As for other pros, I train with a couple of pretty good ones & don't recall ever seeing them train on this as a "concept".

The training concept I've seen routinely is a long go bird, then a short check down.

Another concept I've seen on rare occasion is a long go bird, long flyer then a short retired & the a short go-bird as a quad. But this is rare because training quads are rare. Even in this set-up we would more likely p/u the short retired after the short go-bird, primarily because the dog would prefer to get the standout long flyer.

That's the reason for my 'why'. I don't have to train a dog to get the last bird down, that's what they want to do. I don't have to train a young AA dog to want to p/u standout guns before retireds because that's what they want to do. I do have to train a dog to check down after going long but don't see the significance of long twice as a concept.

What I would question (just to understand 'why') is why train a dog to p/u shortest to longest as the rule & then train contradictory? Obviously Rorem's training techniques work & his reputation as a trainer & handler put him at the top of the game. So this is not questioning Rorem's methods, as if he's wrong, just want to understand why. Just like some very successful trainer rarely repeat, others use it as a daily routine. Both seem to work but there would seen to be a need for consistency regardless.........JMO.

 

[Evan]

What is the purpose/benefit of picking it up in that order?

That would be my first question, although Dave has told me several times that he has pretty much abandoned selection discipline of any kind. He now focuses more on the concept itself. I don't know how he drills on short retired's, but it may or may not be much different than how many of us approaches it.

I have at least three drills for it. The thing is, and many of you know this, is that if you get a dog in that already blows these chronically you'll need to really make an impression to get any real improvement - at least with most of them.

I'll see if I have a diagram for one Rex set up while I was there. Judy had Percy and Waffy with her. I don't recall for sure if she ran Waffy on it, but Percy was impressive! It's a reverse order Hip Pocket double/short retired w/long flyer & a double blind behind the short gun.

Evan

 

[Paul Rainbolt]

I'm surely not so confident in my abilities to question Rorem's approach, rather just trying to understand why. As for other pros, I train with a couple of pretty good ones & don't recall ever seeing them train on this as a "concept".

The training concept I've seen routinely is a long go bird, then a short check down.

Another concept I've seen on rare occasion is a long go bird, long flyer then a short retired & the a short go-bird as a quad. But this is rare because training quads are rare. Even in this set-up we would more likely p/u the short retired after the short go-bird, primarily because the dog would prefer to get the standout long flyer.

That's the reason for my 'why'. I don't have to train a dog to get the last bird down, that's what they want to do. I don't have to train a young AA dog to want to p/u standout guns before retireds because that's what they want to do. I do have to train a dog to check down after going long but don't see the significance of long twice as a concept.

What I would question (just to understand 'why') is why train a dog to p/u shortest to longest as the rule & then train contradictory? Obviously Rorem's training techniques work & his reputation as a trainer & handler put him at the top of the game. So this is not questioning Rorem's methods, as if he's wrong, just want to understand why. Just like some very successful trainer rarely repeat, others use it as a daily routine. Both seem to work but there would seen to be a need for consistency regardless.........JMO.

It has been my experience that a dog that has gone long twice with success has a much harder time with a short check down retired.

Magnifying or exaggerating concepts in this case short retired check down after going long once, twice or three times is how I train on the short retired. I try to keep concepts I'm working on very cut and dry.

I have found that there is very little that is contradictory to training when it come to AA test you need to be ready for anything.

 

[Evan]

I'll see if I have a diagram for one Rex set up while I was there. Judy had Percy and Waffy with her. I don't recall for sure if she ran Waffy on it, but Percy was impressive! It's a reverse order Hip Pocket double/short retired w/long flyer & a double blind behind the short gun.

Evan

I finally found it.

The short (right hand) blind is run first. Then the longer blind behind the short gun. Then the double is thrown; short mark first, then the long flyer, which is retrieved first. Then the short (check-down) mark, which most dogs blew.

Evan