[7pntail]

Well, I got an unexpected surprise yesterday. I hooked up with a fellow RTF-er that I had never met and we agreed to do do some training together. Boy was I embarrassed! I realize there were mistakes made, but I refuse to own an agressive dog, and would like some feedback.

My 7mo. old pup has been around several dogs, I even took him to dog school just for the socialization. He has never so much as shown his teeth to another dog.

The dawg introduction I figured would go like all the others. Not the case! My pup tried to attack a sweetheart female lab. Glad he was on a leash. We tried a few more times for a different reaction, but I finally put him up.

Here is the mistake I made: The intro took place right next to my ATV and that is where I keep all bumpers and training stuff. I asssume my male must of thought the lil bitch was going to get his bumpers. Stupid spot for an introduction but NOT A REASON TO BE AGRESSIVE!

I just got back from the dawg park and met 4 other dogs with nothing but wagging tails.

I hate agressive dogs and the responsibility that goes with them. I will be sheduling his huevos removal appointment for next week!

I would love to hear suggestions, feedback, etc...... This did not make my day!

PS- freefall. Great dog--lot's of potential, she looked good carying around that pintail!

 

[copterdoc]

I wouldn't neuter a 7 month old pup and I would bet money it won't do anything at all, to change his behavior.

 

[Steve Hester]

Even though the vets may not agree with this, 7 months is too young to neuter a pup. Besides, there is only a 40%-60% chance that neutering him will change his behavior. But it's a 100% chance you can never breed him after that, even if he becomes superdog.

 

[John Lash]

The only thing that's guaranteed with neutering is that he'll be about 4 ounces lighter.

John Lash

 

[Dogman50]

this is a joke I hope

 

[freefall319]

PS- freefall. Great dog--lot's of potential, she looked good carying around that pintail!

Thanks. Yeah, she looked great dragging it around. She'll look even better once her mouth is big enough to grab it all the way. We'd love to try it again on neutral ground and see how it goes.

 

[Dog Pro]

I also agree that fixing the dog does not guarantee anything.

 

[Guest]

While fixing doesn't guarantee anything, THIS IS NOT NORMAL BEHAVIOR for such a young pup. A 7 month old pup should be happy go lucky, not a care in the world, excited to work, but NOT willing to attack another dog over it.

The ONLY-- and it was only maybe two in 14 yrs -- dogs that I have ever seen exhibit aggression at a young age did not do well in the long-run.

Me, personally... ALMOST -- but NOT EVERY -- dog I've seen spayed and neutered has had a positive outcome in terms of behavior. In general, they seem to get more settled.

I would hook up with someone that can really help you get the socialization you REALLY need at this young age so that it will work in any condition.

I'm NOT saying you have a terrible dog or did anything in particular wrong -- I have no idea... But this is typically foreboding and needs to be nipped in the bud or the huevos...

I just cannot imagine a 7 month old pup being possessive over training equipment, truck, etc. The actual bird, MAYBE, but not just being around the vehicle and equipment. If he does that at 7 mos, imagine what he might be like in a couple of years?

I hope you find some good help! The good news is that 7 month old pups are a lot easier to control (and train in many cases for behavior like this) than full-grown dogs.

-K

 

[Leslie B]

I agree that getting the boy neutered is a good step in the right direction. The boys that I have had are calmer and more level headed within a few months of the surgery.

I also agree that this is not normal behavior for a 7 month old pup. My guess (and I do mean guess) is that you and the other owner did not pick up on some cues that the dogs were giving off about the encounter. 4 month old pups are especially "bratty" and all of my adult dogs are annoyed by a pup at this age. My experienced matrons can be most assertive in their discipline to a young dog but it is never aggression. Even my old boy who loves all the puppies and is tolerant of an incredible amount of puppy play avoids the kids when they reach this age and stage.

Your irritation and embarassment could easily have contributed to your pups aggression. "Dad is really upset and I don't know why - must be that other dog's fault and I will teach her a lesson". Of course, cooing over the victem only adds fuel to the fire for your dog. On the flip side, the good experience at the dog park indicates that your dog is not beyond hope.

After the surgery I would sign up for advanced obedience classes with an experienced instructor - look for one that has had experience with aggressive dogs, strong breeds, etc. Tell your instructor about your experience with the 4 month old and have him/her give your dog an extra evaluation.

Most of all, dont give up hope. Like all of our feelings - it runs right down the leash to the dog. Watch the situations you put your dog in but if you start treating your dog like a bomb about to go off then that is what he will become.

 

[Dogman50]

7pntail,

I guess forum rules prevent me from answering your pm. So I will respond for everyone to see.

Do not seek to get answers from any forum for what you perceive to be an aggression problem.

Why does one event erase all the good interaction your pup has had in the past ??

A seven month old male pup is a wild canine and must be taught acceptable behavior.

Do not think a medical procedure will FIX the problem.

Please have your dog evaluated in person by a competent professional dog trainer !!

Only by a hands on , in real life , evaluation can the apropriate path be determined.

All advice given without seeing the dog in person is suspect IMHO.

Jim Dobbs is in Marysville, CA and I'm know he can give you an accurate read on whether or NOT you have a real problem.

Davis

 

[Byron Musick]

I recall the first time I took my dog to a training group, he was about 6 months old, he was fine until we were approached by a gunner who was wearing all black, had black gloves, black ear protection. He came to pet my boy, and low an behold "a very negative aggressive response". I just squeezed his nose and told him "NO". Had me very worried. and it took me by suprise, like you, very embarrising....

Never had it happen again, it was just something new, the guy looked like an alien or something. Just did as much socialization as we could and never experienced it again. He is over two years old and as sweet as can be.

 

[Fisherman]

I aggree with dogman. Don't jump to conclusions due to one encounter. My lab was attacked by a pitbull at a dog park. After the attack he was very aggresive towards a few dog. That has since past as he has built up some confidence again. Would try again with older dog. Many dog parks teach dogs many bad habits in my opinion. I would try to socialize your dog elsewere, way to many dogs that aren't stable at big parks.

 

[John Robinson]

7pntail,

I guess forum rules prevent me from answering your pm. So I will respond for everyone to see.

Do not seek to get answers from any forum for what you perceive to be an aggression problem.

Why does one event erase all the good interaction your pup has had in the past ??

A seven month old male pup is a wild canine and must be taught acceptable behavior.

Do not think a medical procedure will FIX the problem.

Please have your dog evaluated in person by a competent professional dog trainer !!

Only by a hands on , in real life , evaluation can the apropriate path be determined.

All advice given without seeing the dog in person is suspect IMHO.

Jim Dobbs is in Marysville, CA and I'm know he can give you an accurate read on whether or NOT you have a real problem.

Davis

Boy do I agree with Davis.

Dog training isn't rocket science, but I feel things get over simplified over the internet. Someone reads a post describing a problem, then folks read into the problem and think of similar situations they had with their own dog. Maybe it's the same situation, maybe it isn't, but reading dogs has to be done in person, by people who are good at reading dogs. I feel bad for the total novice who happens on this sight with a simple question, then gets expert advise from a lot of different folks, much of it completely contradictory, even to the point of neutering or not.

I'm certainly not an expert, but I would follow Davis's advise of seeking help from an good dog trainer in your area, Jim Dobbs would certainly be a good choice, even a lot of folks who post here, but they need to see the dog in person.

John

 

[John Robinson]

I recall the first time I took my dog to a training group, he was about 6 months old, he was fine until we were approached by a gunner who was wearing all black, had black gloves, black ear protection. He came to pet my boy, and low an behold "a very negative aggressive response". I just squeezed his nose and told him "NO". Had me very worried. and it took me by suprise, like you, very embarrising....

Never had it happen again, it was just something new, the guy looked like an alien or something. Just did as much socialization as we could and never experienced it again. He is over two years old and as sweet as can be.

Just last weekend at a field trial a bunch of us were huddled behind my truck, trying to get out of the bitter cold wind and talking about dogs. Judy Meyers who owns that nice Golden Trek was standing right next to my truck with my two dogs just inside sound asleep. Judy was wearing a dark hat, dark hooded jacket with the hood up and dark glasses, she looked like the unibomber. She had been standing there for about half an hour when Gus woke up and saw her. He let out the most hysterical, scared barking frenzy I ever heard. He was scared ___less, and would have either jumped out the truck or attacked if he was out of his kennel. It was actually funny, and as soon as Judy took her glasses off and talked to him, it was all ok.

Sorry, didn't mean to hijack the thread, just thought it was a funny example of what Byron was talking about.

John

 

[metalone67]

Can you describe the socialization the pup had before this encounter? I know you had classes, but that's in a controled enviroment.
Pups will get to a certian stage in their youth and try to flex the proverbile muscle, some will some won't due to the way they were socialized. I would definetly try it on neutral ground and get a couple other dogs to start with then intro the same female. If there is aggression towards her and not the others she may be an alpha female and he's trying to get over on her.

 

[David Lo Buono]

The only thing I want to know is why are you training with a pintail????

 

[7pntail]

Here is more information to help you develop informed opinions. First however, the Pintail post. The cripple was picked up last season and it was not edible--it is a freezer fetch bird.

Here is the socialization to date: 8 Saturdays at Pet Smart inside the store with many different dogs being trained and lots of people. I did this entirely for the socialization.

Introductions to at least 30 friends, some kids, and 6 or 8 friend's dogs-- mostly Chessies, labs and Brittany's

At least 5 or 6 visits to my school ( I am a teacher) and also classsroom visits

One trip to Santa Cruz Beach And Boardwalk With daily walks on the pier and other kids and dawgs

Daily walks to the river with our other two dogs

And, as of 5 minutes ago, a second trip to a dog park.


Here are some of my observations and concerns. First and foremost, Briar has always had a hard time with new people. He is at times a little skiddish until he knows you---this has always concerned me, and in fact posted here describing his classroom visits. I have never seen a skiddish lab.

Here is what I observed today at the dog park: Briar was introduced to a total of 9 dogs. I brought bumpers and tennis balls. The meetings were uneventful. No problems, and he even played a bit with an unknown breed. But, in virtually all of the introductions Briar had his hackles up in varriing degrees. I am no Dawg behaviorist, but that tells me he is being preemptive and sending them a messege. The other dogs did not have their fur up. He has always done this. Another observation: He appeared very stresssed (as Caesar Milan would put it) when I got home and layed down and panted as if he had done a two mile retrieve.

I truly appreciate all of your professional advice. Many of you have a wealth of knowledge, and have trained hundreds. Me---three. I am losing sleep over this
and beating myself up-as I have stated , I will not own an agressive dog. I will also seek the advice of a pro as many have suggested.


Again thank you all!

 

[metalone67]

This is my opinion from your last post. Your pup needs to be knocked down a notch. There are many different ways to do this that will send him the message.

I foster dogs from time to time and they are introduced to the rest of the pack. The pit pup once settled started the same towards some of the others I have. It was a month later when this happened, he knew all the other dogs and once he became comfortable he start to show signs of being dominent over two others.
When he did this I did what's called a deck down placing him on his side and holding him there around his neck while straddling him. This method is used by wolves to teach subbordination. After about 3 or 4 of these he has learned that I am sole leader of the pack and him. It made him a better dog and now 4 months later there are no issues with other dogs at home or anywhere.

 

[wheelhorse]

This is my opinion from your last post. Your pup needs to be knocked down a notch. There are many different ways to do this that will send him the message.

I respectfully disagree with this statement. He is already unsure of himself (raised hackles and first meeting, shyness), but "knocking him down", you can destroy any confidence he has in himself.

I had a dog that was the same as a young dog. He felt his best defense was a good offense. And would posture and growl at first introduction. The problem with that tactic was he would then increase the aggressive posture of the dog he was greeting. It was a vicious cycle.

The way I dealt with it was through obedience. This helped to defuse the situation several ways. By giving him a behavior that received praise from me, he transferred his attention to me and away from the dog coming towards him. I also taught him a "watch me" command, that made make eye contact with me, and away from the dog that he thinks is causing the problem.

By doing these things, he developed confidence in me that I wouldn't let him get in a situation that would hurt him. Also, it help him develop body language that wouldn't heighten the aggression in other dogs.

He is still, at 10 years old, afraid of intact male dogs. But, it never escalates to much more than raised hackles.

 

[dr_dog_guy]

Don't jump to conclusions with one encounter is good advice. Were you watching both dogs closely? Maybe the other dog was giving off some strong signals of her own?

You're thought of trying again on neutral ground is excellent, and if that fails a professional evaluation is also good advice.

If you're dog does fine in the dog park, this one event doesn't mean too much. However, with encounters marked by the hackles up and the nervousness with new dogs, I have to agree with wheelhorse that he sounds very unsure of himself.

Further, back to the professional evaluation - the internet is a good place to get a bunch of ideas, but not a good place to find solutions without extremely careful consideration and evaluation. A skilled observer that actually observes your dog may be just what you need.