[bjoiner]

Chris,
If you took 100 well bred dogs, and attempted to train them to the MH level without FF, what you estimate the percentage of success to be? Then if you took 100 well bred dogs, and attempted to train them to the MH level using FF, what would you estimate the percentage of success to be? I am interested in your opinion because you have now had both types of dogs.

I believe the success rate of the FF dogs would be higher than the non-FF dogs, to say nothing of how much quicker you would reach MH with the FF dogs than the non FF dogs. FF is just one more tool, in the right trainer's hands, that can that increases your chances for success and saves time getting there.

I now this was directed at Chris, but I will respond anyway.

In a good trainer's hand, I think a greater percentage would reach a finished/MH level through a FF program. Probably 20% or more (no idea where that % came from, just a guess). The timing would definitly be quicker. I think that percentage differs even more when you progress to the FT game.

I think some dogs tend to get washed out early in training due to not being able to handle the pressure of a FF program. This is probably due to the demands to title by a certain age that some are in a race to do. I would say that within a time limit the percentage is a lot greater difference as well.

I own one of those dogs that did not handle FF pressure or collar pressure well at all. He never had a lot of drive from day one, despite a very very strong pedigree. I backed of the FF program and got him to a finished level with A LOT of praise teaching and a lot more gray hair added to my head. It took a long time. Chris actually judged him on his HRCH title run. (that old left over schrimp water at Treasure Coast was COLD) I don't think he would have ever made a FT dog.

With all that being said, I feel in the long and short run a good solid FF program is the best and most human way to succeed in the upper level HT and definitely FT game, due to the dogs appropriately understanding the corrections given and the ability to give the corrections in a timely manner.

I will also say that in the long and short run a poor misunderstood FF program is the least and most inhuman was to succeed in training any level retriever.

 

[Chris Atkinson]

Chris,
If you took 100 well bred dogs, and attempted to train them to the MH level without FF, what you estimate the percentage of success to be? Then if you took 100 well bred dogs, and attempted to train them to the MH level using FF, what would you estimate the percentage of success to be? I am interested in your opinion because you have now had both types of dogs.

I believe the success rate of the FF dogs would be higher than the non-FF dogs, to say nothing of how much quicker you would reach MH with the FF dogs than the non FF dogs. FF is just one more tool, in the right trainer's hands, that can that increases your chances for success and saves time getting there.

I don't know Steve. I don't think I am qualified to make that guess in the top paragraph. The most well-bred dog that I have owned and worked with is out in my truck waiting to train at lunchtime. My percent guess would be just that, a guess.

Answering the first paragraph is not that easy anyhow. FF is a term used to describe one generalized set of steps to get a conditioned retrieve response. Even those who claim that they don't FF, have their own way of conditioning a dog to pick up and deliver an object. Even those who "don't FF" are still working with their dogs to open their mouths, pick something up and deliver it in association with some commands.

I'll say this: I enjoy my dog training immensely. It is an indescribable bonding experience that I enjoy with a dog. When I am trainnig and I see the dog perform well, and show that he gets it, he's doing it AND HE'S ENJOYING IT, it feels awesome.

I love how pretty it looks when a good golfer steps up and strikes that ball off the tee...how it starts off nice and straight and rises up and sails out, settling down out there in the sweetspot on the fairway. It has got to be an awesome, rewarding, soul-warming feeling. I think maybe I felt it once. (but then endured 17 other holes where I hacked it up and wished I was fishing or dog training)

I love how awesome it feels to make that perfect flycast. You see that perfect spot tucked right up against the shore with cover on either side and a little overhead brush that you need to get under. You false cast a couple times and then you throw that perfect, tight loop. The leader extends out and the fly lands right on the X. The fish takes the fly, you set the hook, your rod's bent, you feel the tension, you are connected to that fish. It is one of the best feelings that I have experienced.

I get that same feeling when my dog runs a beautiful blind or handles a challenging setup. It is the culmination of many sessions of training to fairly steer the dog to that point as his mentor. To me, one of these sessions feels just like that perfect drive off the tee, or the perfect cast to the hole holding that gamefish.

I can experience this elation, much more frequently, much more fairly, and much more quickly using a modern program that employs a FF step and the use of an e-collar, than my former "Amish" ways.

I doubt that I'll go backwards.

My time is too valuable. I love my dogs too much. I want the best for them. Someone recently told me that no puppy should have a bad day. Really, no dog should have a bad day. If your dog is unhappy, you've got a problem. That problem has nothing to do with whether or not you do or don't FF your dog in training.

Chris

 

[KwickLabs]

Thanks Chris.....that made my day and many more!

 

[KNorman]

Thanks Chris.....that made my day and many more!

Yep....that and putting Snick in time-out

 

[GulfCoast]

Yep....that and putting Snick in time-out

I got a beer bet he show up on the 'fuge forum next with the anti-ff crowd! ;-)

 

[Colonel Blimp]

Darrin, all my oranges would still be oranges if you would stop painting the little buggers green and yellow


Seriously, your impression of dog work on a driven shoot isn’t valid. Nor should you think that the command to initiate a retrieve isn’t formalised, so your observation

So the fact that well bred dogs with hundreds of birds flying over thier heads while being restrained on honor to retrieve every third bird, will reliably go when sent on a mark is a reason not to formalize the command to retrieve?

is way off anything I’ve proposed. I think you also seriously underestimate the physical stress that a driven shoot can present to a dog.


What don't you do that I do? Hunt in the dark one the foreshore and inland.


Krakofdawn posted

I understand driven hunts and would assume you and all 3 dogs are positioned. As a bird approaches and you do your part,one of the three would be sent, the other 2 honour. When the retrieving dog returns with bird in mouth, I assume he sits to deliver demonstarting a proper hold?? Would you care to elaborate how those skills were developed (the correct delivery). I see the 'no go' as an entirely different issue with a myriad of other reasons why that might happen and do not see it as a result of FF or no FF.

Again that’s a misconception about how we do things. I don’t get paid to take three dogs and have two wait on their backsides. Mine don’t normally sit to deliver to hand, that’s showmans stuff for when I do demonstrations. Its quite possible to have three dogs lining up with birds and still have cripples to collect, so I take the bird and get Fido away on the next one.

The no-go issue is the one I addressed because it’s the most usual objection raised against non FF training.

Anyway all this has inspired me to get my teach in on driven shooting for you guys back on track. It’s been a no-go area recently. (Groan)


Eug

 

[DarrinGreene]

What don't you do that I do? Hunt in the dark one the foreshore and inland.


Eug

I'll give ya that one Eug we get locked up for that kinda thing over here.

The rest of it I guess I'll have to see some day to understand how it's that much different from anything we ask a dog to do on an estate shoot or a tower shoot of 400-500 birds.

I vowed the day I left West London Shooting School that I was going back for more lessons, so when I do, I guess I'll have to find some other things to do!

My only regret in spending about half of 95 - 97 over there was not seeing these things first hand. I was a bit busy at the time though.

 

[labguy]

The original post that started this thread really didn't state what his end goal is, nor did he state what training programs or methods he wanted to use.

How we train is a personal decision. You can make Master level retrievers in today's hunt tests without FF, without an e-collar, and withouth a Carr-styled program. Several here have done it and can walk the talk. (I'm in that group)


It is a PERSONAL DECISION.

This thread and every other one I've ever read on this subject, always seems to come down to this:

What is the best, most effective, efficient, fair and humane way to train a retriever to the highest level of competance?

Where the differences of opinion mostly lie is around each person's idea of what a high level of competence is.

To some, having a well trained gundog is the be all and end all. To others it's having a MH and to still others it's having a FT champion that is competative week in and week out.

It's fine to say that how one trains is a "personal decision" however for this discussion to have any merit and validity, we all need to be on the same page as to what is, in fact, the highest level of competence.

I wish for once this arguement/discussion would set some parameters so we were all discussing the same thing.

Otherwise it boils down to comparing apples to oranges to grapes to bannanas to cumquats.

To all the force fetch and e-collar naysayers:

When you can show me that you can consistenly train retrievers that are competative in North American Open All Age Field Trials, in the same quantity and quality as those dogs who are trained using modern force fetch and e-collar methods, then I would happily place some credence in your assertions.

Until then those assertions are just dreams, conjecture and hypothesis.


IMHO

 

[Colonel Blimp]

When you can show me that you can consistenly train retrievers that are competative in North American Open All Age Field Trials, in the same quantity and quality as those dogs who are trained using modern force fetch and e-collar methods, then I would happily place some credence in your assertions.

Mr Boot, meet Mr Otherfoot.

When you can show me that you can consistenly train retrievers that are competative in European Field Trials, in the same quantity and quality as those dogs who are trained using modern non force fetch and e-collar methods, then I would happily place some credence in your assertions.

That's me done. I think we've travelled a long way and not come very far. Just to add that Darrin and anyone else from RTF who finds themselves in The Principality in the shooting season is invited to Blimp Towers (below) for tiffin and enlightenment. Excellent kennelling, dogs also catered for.

Eug

 

[PackLeader]

When you can show me that you can consistenly train retrievers that are competative in North American Open All Age Field Trials, in the same quantity and quality as those dogs who are trained using modern force fetch and e-collar methods, then I would happily place some credence in your assertions.

Mr Boot, meet Mr Otherfoot.

When you can show me that you can consistenly train retrievers that are competative in European Field Trials, in the same quantity and quality as those dogs who are trained using modern non force fetch and e-collar methods, then I would happily place some credence in your assertions.

That's me done. I think we've travelled a long way and not come very far. Just to add that Darrin and anyone else from RTF who finds themselves in The Principality in the shooting season is invited to Blimp Towers for tiffin and enlightenment. Excellent kennelling, dogs also catered for.

Eug

Eug,

Give me an afternoon with your dog and an e-collar and I will have your jaw on the floor. Great control at the line is one thing, great control at 300 yards is another. Everyone has their doubts and fears about the e-collar, that's why we do free demos.

Regards,

Regards,

 

[ErinsEdge]

Eug,

Give me an afternoon with your dog and an e-collar and I will have your jaw on the floor. Great control at the line is one thing, great control at 300 yards is another. Everyone has their doubts and fears about the e-collar, that's why we do free demos.

Regards,

Regards,

But you have never competed in a trial so actually who cares what parlor trick can do with an ecollar at 300 yards.

 

[FOM]

Eug,

I have seen dogs working in England and was greatly impressed, different style of trialing, different style of hunting. I know it can be done without FF, but do realize that it is not done with out pressure of some form (watched one lady stomp out, have a "conversation" with her dog and then proceed to finish handling - what we call "amish style") - Anyway, can I still come and visit? Please!

FOM

 

[tom]

Eug,

I have seen dogs working in England and was greatly impressed, different style of trialing, different style of hunting. I know it can be done without FF, but do realize that it is not done with out pressure of some form (watched one lady stomp out, have a "conversation" with her dog and then proceed to finish handling - what we call "amish style") - Anyway, can I still come and visit? Please!

FOM

Agree; P+ is P+ doesn't matter if it is done with a stern voice or a pinched ear.
Doesn't matter if it is done with a British slip lead or an e-collar either.
Fact is I have never done anything with an e-collar that I hadn't done previously with a slip lead.

lots about nothing regards
tom

 

[PackLeader]

Agree; P+ is P+ doesn't matter if it is done with a stern voice or a pinched ear.
Doesn't matter if it is done with a British slip lead or an e-collar either.
Fact is I have never done anything with an e-collar that I hadn't done previously with a slip lead.

lots about nothing regards
tom

Dog's can tell when they have no leash on. They also learn from doing. If the bird is always within the length of your long line, the dogs going to expect to find the bird within that distance all the time. Makes it hard to stretch them out later.

I can't get the kinda control from a slip lead I can with the e-collar, or I would be using a slip lead. What ever works for, you that's all that's important.

 

[tom]

Dog's can tell when they have no leash on. They also learn from doing. If the bird is always within the length of your long line, the dogs going to expect to find the bird within that distance all the time. Makes it hard to stretch them out later.

I can't get the kinda control from a slip lead I can with the e-collar, or I would be using a slip lead. What ever works for, you that's all that's important.

Do you start a dog on 3hc with an e-collar or a long lead? I do 3hc up close & personal, and the last thing I want when doing 3hc is to get into a de-bolting session. Thus the dogs have experenced the same corrections with a lead that they will experence when we move to the pattern field or out in the field with an e-collar.
A properly collar conditioned dog understands that the e-collar and a slip lead correction mean the exact same thing.

 

[krakadawn]

But you have never competed in a trial so actually who cares what parlor trick can do with an ecollar at 300 yards.

This answer describes what is problematic about many responses-many people have almost no trial experience. Many may have an opinion but based on what experience and how many have actually trained their dogs to the AA level?

 

[PackLeader]

Lot's of great retriever trainers in history never competed in FT. If that's your standard so be it.

 

[labguy]

That's me done. I think we've travelled a long way and not come very far. Just to add that Darrin and anyone else from RTF who finds themselves in The Principality in the shooting season is invited to Blimp Towers (below) for tiffin and enlightenment. Excellent kennelling, dogs also catered for.

Eug

And I would like to cordially reciprocate.

Anytime you find yourself in North America and wish to see the level of skill and training required for a dog to be competative in today's Open All Age Field Trial's, I'm sure there would be many besides myself who would love to show you around ..........for enlightenment purposes only of course, as well as to share a pint or two.

Of course, our beers pale in comparison to your British brew, and I do mean that sincerely.

 

[Chris Atkinson]

Eug,

Give me an afternoon with your dog and an e-collar and I will have your jaw on the floor. Great control at the line is one thing, great control at 300 yards is another. Everyone has their doubts and fears about the e-collar, that's why we do free demos.

Regards,

Regards,

I don't know if you caught it, but the Colonel issued an invitation to get a rare chance at experiencing their part of the retriever world. I've only seen the out of season dummy-games side of it, and THAT was wonderful.

It feels to me like instead of responding with gratitude and politeness, he got responded to here with arrogance and cockiness. Fred Hassen has left the building. There's no need to emulate Fred's style anymore. (At least not on RTF)

Bummer.

Eug, I'd love to take you up on the offer and, like labguy, would love to show you a trial in our neck of the woods. It is quite different from what you guys do. I love it though... I love how it goes on both sides of the Atlantic. Frankly, I believe that a dog trained our way, could play your game...

When I spent time over there at Bill's gamefair, I got to spend many an hour talking with people that I'm sure you know, about training methods and the results they produce.

As Bill Beckett could attest to, I did love the guinness while in Ireland.

That was a very generous offer for you to put up. I would love to one day see "Blimp Towers".

Chris

 

[tom]

I was looking for the tree with the bumper hanging in it ;-)