What passes/fails seasoned test?

BobbyLight · Sep 6, 2012

This will be my first year running my dog in hunt tests and hoping to at least put a seasoned title on him... as someone who is new to the hunt test world I've been observing lots of dogs at tests and watching plenty of youtube videos of guys running their dogs at various levels but I never know what a dog can "get away with" and still pass at a level... Seems like a lot of the dogs I've watched run at the seasoned level are dropping birds and then picking them up again during recall, trainers are having to repeat commands, some cheat the bank, some require more handling on blinds, heck one dog even stopped to take a dump during a retrieve! All that said I'll let you more experienced guys enlighten my ignorance me as to what constitutes a pass and what constitutes a failed test.

To clarify, I've read the rules and what is required at the seasoned level, and I obviously know that not completing one of the retrieves is a fail... what I'm asking is within reason how much correction of the dog and deviation from the line is allowed at the seasoned level to pass (I know a lot of it depends of the judges that day, but I would imagine there are a few things that will always come back to haunt you no matter who the judges are).

Thanks for the insight and the help.

R H Region · Sep 6, 2012

Reasonable control is a much used term in Seasoned. That being said, repeated dropping of birds is a cause for failure, on blinds numerous casts or whistle refusals is cause for failure, dog being noisey at the line is a cause for failure, handler repeatedly giving command to heel or being overly noisey at the line is a cause for failure, having to handle to the area of the fall on a mark may be a cause for failure, stumbling on the blind may be a cause for failure or not challenging the blind, breaking on a mark or a walk-up or walk-out can be cause for failure.

Most Seasoned judges look for reasonable control of a dog at this level. Do your homework and do not try to cut corners in training and do not just hope for the best when running any test. Don't settle for second best in your dog or yourself.

Brokengunz · Sep 6, 2012

? stumbling on the blind, isnt that the idea, its a blind !

captainjack · Sep 6, 2012

Brokengunz said:
? stumbling on the blind, isnt that the idea, its a blind !

No, that's not the idea.

I didn't see a smiley face, so couldn't tell if you were serious in your post.

Bartona500 · Sep 6, 2012

Train for finished, then run seasoned.

captainjack · Sep 6, 2012

Just be familiar with the rules and what is mandatory elimination. Gun Safety for example. Don't try to figure out what you or the dig can get away with, just do the best you can.

Let the dog watch the birds go down, then call his name. If it looks like his hunt will put him in a position you can't revover from, then handle to the bird.

I've seen some judges allow a good deal of creeping even on finished, but I'll not allow my dog to creep and get a retrieve.

I've seen some judges allow many cast and/or whistle refusals, but I'll allow only a few before I rope my dog.

It's difficult for a new handler to do, but try to maintain your standards in a test regardless of what you may be able to get away with. If you don't, that ribbon you get today will likely cost you failures down the road.

Brian Skibicki · Sep 6, 2012

R H Region said:
Reasonable control is a much used term in Seasoned. That being said, repeated dropping of birds is a cause for failure, on blinds numerous casts or whistle refusals is cause for failure, dog being noisey at the line is a cause for failure, handler repeatedly giving command to heel or being overly noisey at the line is a cause for failure, having to handle to the area of the fall on a mark may be a cause for failure, stumbling on the blind may be a cause for failure or not challenging the blind, breaking on a mark or a walk-up or walk-out can be cause for failure.

Most Seasoned judges look for reasonable control of a dog at this level. Do your homework and do not try to cut corners in training and do not just hope for the best when running any test. Don't settle for second best in your dog or yourself.

This is all great advice. One thing I can tell you is that in my opinion Seasoned is one of the most difficult levels to judge as there is such a big jump from the Started level and some dog / handler teams are just not ready. One thing that I try to advise friends who are working their way through the different levels of testing is to, if possible, prepare for the level above what you are going to be tested at, but sometimes that is not practical given timing of a dogs progress through training. Another idea is for you to practice running a Finished level dog, maybe a friends dog, in training to experience where you need to be when you are doing the handling. Remember that your part of the equation is important as well, and how comfortable you are can be a huge asset when it comes time for you to run your dog.

22899 · Sep 6, 2012

A true break is automatic elimination at all levels of HRC
acontrolled break is subjective. Know the difference

Failer to deliver to hand is automatic failed in Seasoned and Finished

Obscene lack of gun safety will get you dropped at all levels.
Pointing the gun at gallery,judges ect.

Mary Lynn Metras · Sep 6, 2012

captainjack said:
Just be familiar with the rules and what is mandatory elimination. Gun Safety for example. Don't try to figure out what you or the dig can get away with, just do the best you can.

Let the dog watch the birds go down, then call his name. If it looks like his hunt will put him in a position you can't revover from, then handle to the bird.

I've seen some judges allow a good deal of creeping even on finished, but I'll not allow my dog to creep and get a retrieve.

I've seen some judges allow many cast and/or whistle refusals, but I'll allow only a few before I rope my dog.

It's difficult for a new handler to do, but try to maintain your standards in a test regardless of what you may be able to get away with. If you don't, that ribbon you get today will likely cost you failures down the road.

Don't look for what you can away with to pass. Maintain high standards and train beyond Finished. Good luck!!

Erik Nilsson · Sep 6, 2012

Brian Skibicki said:
This is all great advice. One thing I can tell you is that in my opinion Seasoned is one of the most difficult levels to judge as there is such a big jump from the Started level and some dog / handler teams are just not ready. One thing that I try to advise friends who are working their way through the different levels of testing is to, if possible, prepare for the level above what you are going to be tested at, but sometimes that is not practical given timing of a dogs progress through training. Another idea is for you to practice running a Finished level dog, maybe a friends dog, in training to experience where you need to be when you are doing the handling. Remember that your part of the equation is important as well, and how comfortable you are can be a huge asset when it comes time for you to run your dog.[/QUOTE]

Thats what I did before I ran my first seasoned test great learning expierence (ran a very nice Peake) do it as a set up dog or test dog the day of.

My quick thoughts
Good control while the dog is on/off the leash
Gun safety is a must, always tell the judges "open and safe" and make sure the gun is
Challenge the line to the blind and Slow down on handling, I mean dont be in a rush or you can make mistakes that will cause the dog to fail
Be prepared for the unexpected
Make sure your dog is good on diversion birds

and yes train for finished

Paul Brown · Sep 6, 2012

BobbyLight said:
This will be my first year running my dog in hunt tests and hoping to at least put a seasoned title on him... as someone who is new to the hunt test world I've been observing lots of dogs at tests and watching plenty of youtube videos of guys running their dogs at various levels but I never know what a dog can "get away with" and still pass at a level... Seems like a lot of the dogs I've watched run at the seasoned level are dropping birds and then picking them up again during recall, trainers are having to repeat commands, some cheat the bank, some require more handling on blinds, heck one dog even stopped to take a dump during a retrieve! All that said I'll let you more experienced guys enlighten my ignorance me as to what constitutes a pass and what constitutes a failed test.

To clarify, I've read the rules and what is required at the seasoned level, and I obviously know that not completing one of the retrieves is a fail... what I'm asking is within reason how much correction of the dog and deviation from the line is allowed at the seasoned level to pass (I know a lot of it depends of the judges that day, but I would imagine there are a few things that will always come back to haunt you no matter who the judges are).

Thanks for the insight and the help.

I would not be so critical of these dogs if, indeed, you haven't run in a seasoned test. Many of these dogs are young and inexperienced and the venue will erode control. There is a reason why, "He's never done that before," is a hunt test cliche.

Most seasoned judges under whom I have run want to see a dog that demonstrates it has been trained, is under control, and is making an honest effort to get the job done. These are not finished dogs, and may not have been through swim-by or thoroughly de-cheated. These dogs are probably still in transition and may require more handling to challenge the blind than a finished or master level dog. A good seasoned judge understands this and sets up a fair test and judges it accordingly. As far as the marks, judges want to see the dogs pick up a double cleanly. Handling to the AOF on the land marks, means the dog better pick up the water marks without any help. I've seen more dogs fail on the walk-up because of a break, or the diversion due to a switch, than have failed on the marks or blinds.

22899 · Sep 6, 2012

Paul Brown said:
I would not be so critical of these dogs if, indeed, you haven't run in a seasoned test. Many of these dogs are young and inexperienced and the venue will erode control. There is a reason why, "He's never done that before," is a hunt test cliche.

Most seasoned judges under whom I have run want to see a dog that demonstrates it has been trained, is under control, and is making an honest effort to get the job done. These are not finished dogs, and may not have been through swim-by or thoroughly de-cheated. These dogs are probably still in transition and may require more handling to challenge the blind than a finished or master level dog. A good seasoned judge understands this and sets up a fair test and judges it accordingly. As far as the marks, judges want to see the dogs pick up a double cleanly. Handling to the AOF on the land marks, means the dog better pick up the water marks without any help. I've seen more dogs fail on the walk-up because of a break, or the diversion due to a switch, than have failed on the marks or blinds.

You have seen a SEASONED dog fail because of a switch on a diversion bird

Has something changed?

Rick Vaughan · Sep 7, 2012

You've gotten a lot of great advice and I only have one more piece of advice. When you heel your dog to the line, take a deep breath and remember this is suppose to be fun. Enjoy the moment, and trust me...a dog will sense your nerves at the line so once again, just have a good time and make it a game that your dog will want to play!

Good Luck to you both!

Brian Skibicki · Sep 7, 2012

MooseGooser said:
You have seen a SEASONED dog fail because of a switch on a diversion bird

Has something changed?

I am sure that he did not mean that a dog was failed for switching in a Seasoned test, because that is still not the case according to the rules. However, with that said, a dog can be failed for "lack of seasoned level of control" and the switch contributes to the inability for the dog being evaluated to recover the bird that it dropped. An example being that there is 10, 15, or more whistle and cast refusals in an effort to recover THAT bird.

Janet Kimbrough · Sep 7, 2012

Gooser,

No a dog cannot be failed for a switch in Seasoned. That being said, a switch falls under control and control is accumulative through the test and covers many different aspects so a switch may "contribute" to a dog failing.

To the OP, you have gotten really good advice previously but one thing that has not been mentioned is you can recast a Seasoned dog. Just keep in mind that the recast does not erase what the dog did initially so if you are going to use it, do it BEFORE your dogs performance is failing.

Janet

Dman · Sep 7, 2012

MooseGooser said:
You have seen a SEASONED dog fail because of a switch on a diversion bird

Has something changed?

No. Switching is not an automatic failure in Seasoned.

louisianadukdog · Sep 7, 2012

You have gotten some really good advise...one thing I'll add is this...Let the judges know that it is your first time handling at that level. Most judges will go out of their way to make you comfortable and answer any questions you may have....but no "what if" questions. LOL!!!

Jimbo

Paul Brown · Sep 7, 2012

MooseGooser said:
You have seen a SEASONED dog fail because of a switch on a diversion bird

Has something changed?

I am sorry to have confused you; I only meant to illustrate 'lack of reasonable control' at a seasoned level. Often the dog's work to that point was marginal and the switch was a glaring example. Also, as Brian Skibicki pointed out, the switch often times leads to problems which the handler/dog team cannot overcome.

BobbyLight · Sep 7, 2012

Great info guys thanks for all the responses... Just to clarify, I didn't intend for it to sound like I want to train my dog only to perform at the bare minimum standard and "get away" with a lot of stuff as I would love to be able to put a finished title on this dog eventually... I just have no personal experience running hunt tests so I never know if the run I'm watching I a pass or not.

Im headed out to work with a trainer in the AM so I'm sure he can show me a ton about what constitutes a pass (from one of the more advanced dogs mines not there yet!)

22899 · Sep 7, 2012

Paul Brown said:
I am sorry to have confused you; I only meant to illustrate 'lack of reasonable control' at a seasoned level. Often the dog's work to that point was marginal and the switch was a glaring example. Also, as Brian Skibicki pointed out, the switch often times leads to problems which the handler/dog team cannot overcome.

Thanks for clarification

I know it has been discussed to have that diversion bird mean something at the seasoned level
many felt that letting a switch go unpunished was teaching bad habits.
I thought maybe a rule change had happened I was unaware of

Thanks avian for the clarification

What passes/fails seasoned test?

BobbyLight

R H Region

Brokengunz

captainjack

Bartona500

captainjack

Brian Skibicki

22899

Mary Lynn Metras

Erik Nilsson

Paul Brown

22899

Rick Vaughan

Brian Skibicki

Janet Kimbrough

Dman

louisianadukdog

Paul Brown

BobbyLight

22899

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