Jan 14 training

22899 · Jan 15, 2013

copterdoc said:
That's what FTP is all about.
Building a compulsion to drive to the back pile.

It's basically Force Fetch, extended out to a pile.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
This!!!!

You really want and need the dog going ethusiastiaclly to that back pile..

You can fix your remote sit, the dog looking away,, verbal and hand casts,,
Get the foundation down first.. Thats the back Pile!!

JMHO.

Gooser

P.S.

I agree too,, that it takes Onions to post a Video,, and ask for opinion,,,, Thick skin! Thick skin!!!

copterdoc · Jan 15, 2013

MooseGooser said:
the dogs attitude and desire will get better with time as long as you are careful to mix praise with force.

Yes.

Pay attention to effort. How hard the dog is trying.

When he tries harder, PRAISE.
When he slacks off, FORCE.

Timing is critical. With both praise, and with force.

And don't just use the collar.

The stick is a whole lot better.
The dog can HEAR the stick "coming". And it knows when it "beats" it's sting.

Jay-Bird · Jan 15, 2013

This is a great avenue for me to learn and help other young people learn that dont have the parts to post/ask.
I truly appreciate it all.

I do think im going to slow it down and work the back pile a bit alone, next day will be some marks and free time for him to romp then repeat that the next few days, while listening to advice given, i need to keep my eye out for good ground to train on so i can evaluate his speed/momentum

dpate · Jan 15, 2013

MooseGooser said:
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
This!!!!

You really want and need the dog going ethusiastiaclly to that back pile..

You can fix your remote sit, the dog looking away,, verbal and hand casts,,
Get the foundation down first.. Thats the back Pile!!

JMHO.

Gooser

P.S.

I agree too,, that it takes Onions to post a Video,, and ask for opinion,,,, Thick skin! Thick skin!!!

Agreed. I would want that dog driving to the back pile hard. I would also want the dog to be almost flawless in the going to the back pile from the remote sit and you're still seeing a lot of mistakes there. If it were me, I would get that back pile flawless before adding in whistle stops and overs. Remember, for almost every dog the over piles are very easy for some reason (At least that's what I've seen in my limited experience and heard from others) so get the back pile down.

Thanks for posting

Renee P. · Jan 15, 2013

Me no expert dog trainer but I know WINTER!

Like others, I think the dog is just trying not to slip on the ice.

I found/find learning to cast really hard. I should have done a video too, prolly would have saved myself a lot of time.

22899 · Jan 15, 2013

I would caution also that there is a difference between enthusiasm and panic

Wayne Nutt · Jan 15, 2013

Gooser, I think at this stage of training the dog needs both hand signals and voice for the back cast. Silent and verbal only casts will come later.

Criquetpas · Jan 15, 2013

Just a few questions at what level of training is Brittany, owned several with my brother many years ago. What are your end goals of running the Lab, hunting, hunt tests HRC or AKC, or Field trials? Where are you located?

I think perfection is the enemy of the good , old quote not original from me. You appear to have some previous training experience watching your returns on the retrieve with a snappy finish to the side. Having said that it is a real plus for lining the dog up first ,next send. Use the dead bird cue, but, lose it when you put your hand down, maybe sequence of sit dog looking out, dead bird cue, hand goes in , dog is sent. You might have to heel forward closer to the pile to get the dog to look out after the sit command. I do see some issues in the future if he associates that hand with pressure.
Sometimes dogs will look out but don't see they are just looking out and can transfer to marks. It is a form of bugging.
Trained with a pro trained dog who developed the looking out , needed one point for his AFC, never could get it.

Ok, I would tone myself down with a normal tone of voice. If your normal speaking voice is loud, then work at being quieter on your sends and your good dogs, maybe just use a Ok for praise and not all the time. The dog has advanced to a level as far as I can see on the video where there is not a lack of effort, so should not be praised all the time.
Try to take the bumper with your right hand, use that nice finish heel to your advantage then slip the hand in for the send, using your sit, dead bird cue if you choose, hand goes in for the send, don't use even a slight forward motion and send. What I have learned and many others much more experienced have taught me, half or more blind work and marks happens before the dog ever leaves the line. So all those basic commands will play a very important role later on in the field. Are you having fun is the big question and is the dog having fun? If the answer to both is yes, then just keep what you are doing take the advice that's seems to make sense and get your critique back at the Board.

22899 · Jan 15, 2013

Wayne Nutt said:
Gooser, I think at this stage of training the dog needs both hand signals and voice for the back cast. Silent and verbal only casts will come later.

Wayne.

Yes !

I was surprised how long we stayed on learning that back pile.
I got her to the point where I thought she was ready to move on,, but was told we were then going to start to tackle the issues.

There was flaring, a poor front finish, her attitude, my attitude, my barking commands, her sit when she came back to me, her eye contact.
She ran that back pile for a long time...

The dog in the Video here reminds me very much of Flinch when we started. Flinch is soft, didnt really have a ton of go. Eventually things started comming round. The help I recieved in applying pressure, then PRAISE when she did it right, Vastly improved her enthusiasum and drive.
She eventually started to anticipate the back command and cast. very good eye contact. The just verbal casts happened on their own. The silent cast just happened on its own. She was so compelled to go,, that either a verbal or a cast,, and she was gone..

I am convinced with dogs I have had in the past, I didnt spend NEAR enough time with pile work... I was told Now(Pile) is the time to fix a LOT of problems.

Flinch's favorite game now is running or being cast to a back pile.
I will set a pile off to the side of training days,and run her to it as a fun bumper.. She Loves it..

I will say aslo that my Daily regiment of that that back pile would only take about 15 minutes TOPS...
We would work on that back pile,, then go throw marks..
You have to learn when to stop, before you run out of dog.... Keep the fun in it..

Gooser
P.S.
I will aslo say,, it was a surprising long time, before I sent her from my side..

Wayne Nutt · Jan 15, 2013

Rowdy has been on the T pile is seems forever. I am using one my neighbors back yard. I started then it snowed, then the kids were out on Christmas break, then I restarted, then it rained 3 1/4 inches so I had to wait until my neighbors yard dried out some. Monday we started again, now it snowed/sleeted this morning. So another delay.

My Rowdy is so compelled to get to the pile on the remote sit back cast that I have to work at it to get him to sit there. I blink an eye lid and he wants to go. This is going to work out though. I druther have this problem than the no goes. On whistle sits enroute he's reliable to stay until cast.

Renee P. · Jan 15, 2013

Jay-Bird, I see your dog looking around a lot. Is it distracted, looking at your other dog?

If you have room you might consider setting up your T differently so your dog is not running straight down a road. You may be inadvertently teaching it to run down roads which will haunt you later when you don't want the dog to run down a road.

Newbie regards...

Steve Shaver · Jan 15, 2013

I see lots of improvement here but from what I am seeing and from other comments I have to ask what phase are we working on? 3 handed casting? FTP or T?
The dog is doing a nice job but I see problems in the second video in 3 handed casting that should be pretty damn solid before going to FTP the T. I too like to see a little more momentum but not necessarily by force. Used in the wrong time or place force can kill momentum. When starting yard work it's all about teaching with fun and excitement and wanting to do the job without force or much correction. A dog that isnt enjoying yard work is tough to train and not much fun. I may be wrong but to me that is what I am seeing in this dog. He wants to do it but is a little nervous and confused as to whether he is doing what he is supposed to and worried about correction.
One example I see of this is in the second video when you are casting him back and he wants to go to the left over pile you give him a pretty growly NO! He looks pretty nervous. I would just use a calm no and bring him back with reassurance that he is ok by talking to him in a calm and easy voice. Then when he does it right make a fool of your self telling him what a good boy he is, women do this much better than men. The teaching phase needs to be as black and white to the dog as possible with little to no correction. Now if you were truly up to doing T work, and Im not totally sure you are, when he goes left instead of back the second or third time I would blow the sit whistle then a nick and recast rather than bringing him back and starting over. When teaching 3 handed casting I would bring him back and recast but when doing T work he should have a total understanding of what is being asked of him and be able to deal with a little correction via indirect pressure when he makes the wrong move. I'm not sure this dog is to that point.
I like enthusiasm, not necessairily leaving a trail of fire but something that shows the dog is having fun. I dont see a lot of this here. I think the dog is very capable of building momentum but dont think force is the answer at this point. Personally I would back all the way up to 3 handed casting and start over building momentum by making it fun and building confidence. You could progress faster than the first time because he already has been taught what to do. Go about it this time with the intention of building momentum.
I will save my opinions on things other have commented on because to me you are not to that point yet altough I would slow down on your casts and not throw it out there like you are throwing a jab at Mike Tyson. You are teaching the dog well and he is understanding and learning from it but what I think is lacking is the enjoyment of the work and I believe the cause of that is a moving a little too fast with correction and force. This dog doesnt not need much in the way of correction to learn from his mistakes. I see too much correction and not enough excitement and praise. A stern NO! and this dog is saying ohh S#!t when a simple nooo come back here and lets do it right is sufficient. Dont get me wrong I am not saying you are in any way mean or abusive to the dog. What I am saying is that it doesnt take much for him to understand he made a mistake. If you are more calm and clear with your teaching your dog will be more calm and clear with his learning. Some dog need a little more sterness but I dont believe Ty is one of them.
I usually dont comment much here, must be the 15 below weather outside and the lack of nothing better to do, but I also see a nice dog and a new trainer that has as much potential as the dog and would like to see them improve. All the above is simply my opinion and observations. Not saying I'm totally right or wrong just think about it and see if any of it can be of use to you.

Bridget Bodine · Jan 15, 2013

I personally would not be running him on ice. That is a vet bill waiting to happen. I also have winter issues and if the conditions are not safe I will not train. Snow is ok , ice not so much.

Jay-Bird · Jan 15, 2013

Steve, I thank you for your post. I was thinking of backing up and making it more fun and doing a day of yard work followed by a day of fun and marking.

copterdoc · Jan 15, 2013

Jay-Bird said:
Steve, I thank you for your post. I was thinking of backing up and making it more fun and doing a day of yard work followed by a day of fun and marking.

You should be marking the dog, every day that you do yard work.

Don't do it in the yard though.
Keep the field separate from the yard for right now.

The field and the yard are two different worlds.
Don't bring "yard stuff" into your marking sessions, and don't throw marks in your yard sessions.

Your dog needs to be building a positive association with field work. And daily marking sessions are really great for that.

Steve Shaver · Jan 15, 2013

Jay-Bird said:
Steve, I thank you for your post. I was thinking of backing up and making it more fun and doing a day of yard work followed by a day of fun and marking.

Your welcome and good idea. Keeping balance as much as possible between marking, yard work, handling etc. is always, and I will say always, a good idea. However what I meant was start over with your yard work right from the begining with the goal of increasing momentum. Some dogs do need a break from yard work but generally when I start teaching a dog to handle I like to do it every day but will do other stuff like marks in that day too. Most dogs I have worked with (with the exception of a couple) really like yard work because I work at making it so right from the begining. Maybe in your case it may be a good idea to just do fun stuff for a few days before starting over but when and if you do keep the balance throughout the process.

Howard N · Jan 15, 2013

Bridget Bodine said:
I personally would not be running him on ice. That is a vet bill waiting to happen. I also have winter issues and if the conditions are not safe I will not train. Snow is ok , ice not so much.

I'm with Bridget, and someone else who mentioned the conditions. I would not like my dog going faster than this in these conditions. I much prefer a plowed parking lot to frozen ruts.

Wayne Nutt · Jan 15, 2013

Thanks Howard.

Wayne Nutt · Jan 16, 2013

In the Lardy flowchart of things, the front sit remote cast comes from three handed casting and transfers directly into the FTP. The FTP from front sit avoids many of the problems of the side send until the dog learns the line and pile location, etc. The problems from the side sends: bugging, no goes, flaring, etc. The side send is slipped in. But to keep the side send issues to a minimum keep doing the front sit sends mixed in with the side sends.
The front sit sends also is a cure for some of the side send issues that may develop.
Force is initially done from the front sit position.

If you are not following TRT this may not be what your program does.

22899 · Jan 16, 2013

What Wayne said,,, andd

Think of what and where most of you cast are in relation to a cold blind, and the dog.

Dont you think you want them getting use to being cast back from a position of sitting facing you?
You work at getting that eye contact going.
Side send eventually, but most often remote sits.

Gooser

Jan 14 training

22899

copterdoc

Jay-Bird

dpate

Renee P.

22899

Wayne Nutt

Criquetpas

22899

Wayne Nutt

Renee P.

Steve Shaver

Bridget Bodine

Jay-Bird

copterdoc

Steve Shaver

Howard N

Wayne Nutt

Wayne Nutt

22899

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