Skinner vs Pavlov

copterdoc · Jan 23, 2013

This ought to be good. I could also have said Operant, vs Classical conditioning.

Which one do you consider "better", when applied to Retriever Training?
Or, if you think that OC is "better" for certain aspects of training, while CC is "better" for others, what would those differences be?

RobinZClark · Jan 23, 2013

Great question. I've been wondering about exactly the same thing. IMO, OC is better for complex activities when there is not a huge amount of pressure. CC kicks in when there is a lot of pressure or adrenaline. CC always trumps OC.

gdgnyc · Jan 23, 2013

I hope that Darrin sees this. If not, I may weigh in, breaking a promise to myself not to do so.

Howard N · Jan 23, 2013

You're kidding. Pavlov was working with the autonomic nervous system, triggering a reflex (salivating) when he rang a bell and then fed the dogs.

Skinner shaped behavior with either reward or punishment. Behavior isn't a reflex.

Later edit: I think I shouldn't have said reward or punishment for Skinner. I believe I should have said adding or removing stimuli.

copterdoc · Jan 23, 2013

Howard N said:
Behavior isn't a reflex.

It can be conditioned into a reflex.

Ron in Portland · Jan 23, 2013

I would say both; but then again, it depends on if my understanding of the differences between the two is correct.

I thought that with Skinner, the response was a conditioned response through a decision. This would be the case of a left or right cast, the dog is interpreting what the cast is, and deciding if they go with it or not.

With Pavlov, it was an involuntary response (i.e. drooling when they hear the dinner bell). They don't "decide" to drool, they just do. I suppose you can make the argument that the sit whistle can be conditioned to an involuntary response. I think it becomes so automatic that it no longer requires the dog to think, "there's that damn sit whistle again, I'd better sit down". I think it's more a matter of their but is headed to the ground when the whistle blows (well, eventually). Or would that still be a conditioned response, just really well conditioned?

Howard N · Jan 23, 2013

I think reflex is controlled by the autonomic nervous system and behavior is controlled by the voluntary nervous system. I cannot think of what we do in retriever training as having much to do with the autonomic system. We're training the voluntary nervous system. The autonomic reacts too, but it's under the surface reacting to the stimulus but we're not trying to train it. Kinda like adrenalin increases when we have a bird thrown or use the collar to have the dog sit faster but we aren't training to have adrenalin flow, we're training a retrieve or a fast sit.

copterdoc · Jan 23, 2013

Howard N said:
You're kidding. Pavlov was working with the autonomic nervous system, triggering a reflex (salivating) when he rang a bell and then fed the dogs.

Skinner shaped behavior with either reward or punishment. Behavior isn't a reflex.

Later edit: I think I shouldn't have said reward or punishment for Skinner. I believe I should have said adding or removing stimuli.

That's important.

Stimuli can be rewarding, aversive, or neutral.
Reinforcement, and punishment refer to the behavioral change that the stimuli influenced.

copterdoc · Jan 23, 2013

Howard N said:
I think reflex is controlled by the autonomic nervous system and behavior is controlled by the voluntary nervous system. I cannot think of what we do in retriever training as having much to do with the autonomic system. We're training the voluntary nervous system. The autonomic reacts too, but it's under the surface reacting to the stimulus but we're not trying to train it. Kinda like adrenalin increases when we have a bird thrown or use the collar to have the dog sit faster but we aren't training to have adrenalin flow, we're training a retrieve or a fast sit.

Here's something to think about.

Although we discuss classical and operant conditioningas if they were two separate things, they both
happen at the same time. You cannot learn something
operantly without also creating a classical association
and vice versa. What we, as trainers, need to
know is that classically learned behaviors will always
trump operantly learned behaviors if push comes
to shove. As Bob Bailey says in his training classes,
“Pavlov is always sitting on your shoulder.”

jeff evans · Jan 23, 2013

Howard N said:
I think reflex is controlled by the autonomic nervous system and behavior is controlled by the voluntary nervous system. I cannot think of what we do in retriever training as having much to do with the autonomic system. We're training the voluntary nervous system. The autonomic reacts too, but it's under the surface reacting to the stimulus but we're not trying to train it. Kinda like adrenalin increases when we have a bird thrown or use the collar to have the dog sit faster but we aren't training to have adrenalin flow, we're training a retrieve or a fast sit.

Howard N said:
You're kidding. Pavlov was working with the autonomic nervous system, triggering a reflex (salivating) when he rang a bell and then fed the dogs.

Skinner shaped behavior with either reward or punishment. Behavior isn't a reflex.

Later edit: I think I shouldn't have said reward or punishment for Skinner. I believe I should have said adding or removing stimuli.

Great response Howard!

gdgnyc · Jan 23, 2013

By definition, a reflex is inborn, does not have to be learned and has survival value. One definition of behavior is that it is anything an organism does as a response to a stimulus.

A behavior can be conditioned to become automatic. It is still a learned behavior. For example a boxer learns to slip a punch, doing so automatically through conditioning.

CRNAret · Jan 23, 2013

You guys can have Skinner and Pavlov - I'll stick with Tri Tronics

copterdoc · Jan 23, 2013

gdgnyc said:
.....A behavior can be conditioned to become automatic....

Operantly, or Classically?

gdgnyc said:
.....It is still a learned behavior. For example a boxer learns to slip a punch, doing so automatically through conditioning.

What kind of conditioning?

What is the stimulus that elicits the response?

gdgnyc · Jan 23, 2013

Classical conditioning is also called associative learning. Learning associations means that certain things go together. I put my whistles around my neck and my dog runs to the door to go training.

copterdoc · Jan 23, 2013

gdgnyc said:
Classical conditioning is also called associative learning. Learning associations means that certain things go together. I put my whistles around my neck and my dog runs to the door to go training.

That would be a conditioned emotional response.

And yes, it is Classically conditioned.

Criquetpas · Jan 23, 2013

CRNAret said:
You guys can have Skinner and Pavlov - I'll stick with Tri Tronics

It's over my head to even think about training rats and B.F. Skinner. Agreed Tri Tronics rule.

gdgnyc · Jan 23, 2013

copterdoc said:
That would be a conditioned emotional response.

And yes, it is Classically conditioned.

Now I know that your original question is a trick question.

copterdoc · Jan 23, 2013

gdgnyc said:
Now I know that your original question is a trick question.

Certainly not a trick question.

DarrinGreene · Jan 23, 2013

It's not a trick question, but it does demonstrate either.. A lack of understanding or... an extreme desire to debate semantics.

There is no comparison to be made between OC and CC. They are two separate and distinct theories that, when combined in retriever training, create and re-enforce the trained responses we want from our dogs.

The two work in tandem and not in any way exclusively from one another, thus, there's no valid comparison to be made.

copterdoc · Jan 23, 2013

DarrinGreene said:
It's not a trick question, but it does demonstrate either.. A lack of understanding or...

Could be that. I guess I wouldn't know.

DarrinGreene said:
....an extreme desire to debate semantics.....

I have no desire to debate semantics.

DarrinGreene said:
.....There is no comparison to be made between OC and CC. They are two separate and distinct theories that, when combined in retriever training, create and re-enforce the trained responses we want from our dogs.

The two work in tandem and not in any way exclusively from one another, thus, there's no valid comparison to be made.

There are differences. Major differences.

And those differences significantly effect both how we read a dog's responses, and how we respond (or should respond) to them.

Skinner vs Pavlov

copterdoc

RobinZClark

gdgnyc

Howard N

copterdoc

Ron in Portland

Howard N

copterdoc

copterdoc

jeff evans

gdgnyc

CRNAret

copterdoc

gdgnyc

copterdoc

Criquetpas

gdgnyc

copterdoc

DarrinGreene

copterdoc

Top Contributors this Month

Recommended Communities