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#41 ·
Ken Bora said:

A scenario I have seen more than once. Riddle me this Jen.
Miss Molly Minivan comes to a hunt test. He totally in tune with her Golden Retriever Muffy runs out and gets its first live flier. Molly does not have a group to train with and does not belong to a club. She uses no birds in training. Muffy is for some reason birdy as heck and when it gets to that bird, it is like Ray Lewis in a deer antler shop! Muffy grabs that fresh duck and instead of running straight back to Molly runs to the live gunners and circles them a couple times. Then runs to the gallery and shows the duck to all. Then circles the judges a few times in a full and proper victory lap. And then instead of handing Molly the bird runs to the parking area and sits by the door of the minivan ready to go home.
Handle this how, will you?
BTW I been typing about Miss Molly Minivan for about 98 years here on the RTF (we count in dog years here) so this hypothetical scenario in no way reflects you or your training activities or choice of motor vehicles pr retriever breeds. Just a funny happenstance, it is.
Yet the question is valid and not rhetorical.
How would you counsel Molly?
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This doesn't have anything to do with positive training. This was just a lack of training. That could very well happen to a poorly trained forced dog.
 
#42 ·
Jen

My helper was the newspaper delivery boy. I hired him to help me. Kids don't deliver papers anymore so now it's a little harder.
 
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#44 · (Edited)
For the dog playing keep away with dummy, there are two solutions. Either will generally work:

1. Take the dummy out of the equation and give the dog a number of reinforcements for coming to you. Take him for a hike and periodically call him to you and give him a treat. Make sure it is a high value treat to the dog. Obviously the reward will not be a dummy. You can also increase the treat value further by making sure the dog is hungry. After 30 or 40 high value reinforcements for coming to you from various distances and various locations, add the dummy back in. You can think of the dummy as simply another distraction level.

or

2. Find a large area, far from automobiles and throw the dog a dummy. When he picks it up, simply turn and walk away from him. Keep walking until he catches up with you. Keep your mouth shut and make no noise. That activity simply tells pup where you are. It may take 40 yards or it may take 100 yds, but pup will look up and see you leaving and come find you. When he arrives, take the dummy (with no movement toward him) and tell him thank you for the nice delivery to hand. Wait a second or two and then give him a treat. I have never had to do the walk away act more than three times with a dog to have him coming proficiently with dummy in mouth. Many people tend to interpret these instructions as walk away 30 feet and then stop and call the pup. The correct process is keep walking silently until pup catches you, then while you are still walking in the same direction, reach down and take the dummy.
 
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#46 · (Edited)
Polmaise posted
The recent Five nations results must have you 'cockahoop' and feeling positive ?:grin:..
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Robert, I'm somewhat underwhelmed by Rugby; however as an Anglo Irishman living in wildest Wales I have a foot in many camps and can turn my coat as the situation demands.;) The village pub is as you might expect, a hotbed of the Taffia.

If I could trade England's Grand Slam for ten points for the Villa, Wales can bury 'em at The Millenium with my blessing!

Eug
 
Discussion starter · #47 ·
Colonel Blimp said:
Polmaise posted Robert, I'm somewhat underwhelmed by Rugby; however as an Anglo Irishman living in wildest Wales I have a foot in many camps and can turn my coat as the situation demands.;) The village pub is as you might expect, a hotbed of the Taffia.

If I could trade England's Grand Slam for ten points for the Villa, Wales can bury 'em at The Millenium with my blessing!

Eug
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Eug what the heck are you doing posting this foreign language at 10 am??
 
#48 · (Edited)
Darrin,

You think that's difficult to interpret, just wait until me and crackerd get going in our native dialect, Brummie. What follows may not be fully clear at first reading because I've had to delete all the expletives which in Brummagem serve as punctuation marks.:rolleyes:

'Islot am orlrite but weem agooin dowun the suff. The Toffees stuffed the Baggies Sarrerdy, burrit do marrer, theym saefe. The vanilla am in the browun stuff.

Gorrit? 'Tae 'ard. This am we
Image
Un thissens issn.
Image


Eug
 
#50 ·
KwickLabs said:
Here's the way I approach "keep away". Make it a non-issue. ;)

"Here" first...then "Fetch"
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Thanks, Jim. Have you trained any puppies where teaching the command "here" wasn't so easy to do? And if you did, how did you resolve the problem? I would like to have many tools available for this.
 
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Discussion starter · #53 ·
rmilner said:
For the dog playing keep away with dummy, there are two solutions. Either will generally work:

1. Take the dummy out of the equation and give the dog a number of reinforcements for coming to you. Take him for a hike and periodically call him to you and give him a treat. Make sure it is a high value treat to the dog. Obviously the reward will not be a dummy. You can also increase the treat value further by making sure the dog is hungry. After 30 or 40 high value reinforcements for coming to you from various distances and various locations, add the dummy back in. You can think of the dummy as simply another distraction level.

or

2. Find a large area, far from automobiles and throw the dog a dummy. When he picks it up, simply turn and walk away from him. Keep walking until he catches up with you. Keep your mouth shut and make no noise. That activity simply tells pup where you are. It may take 40 yards or it may take 100 yds, but pup will look up and see you leaving and come find you. When he arrives, take the dummy (with no movement toward him) and tell him thank you for the nice delivery to hand. Wait a second or two and then give him a treat. I have never had to do the walk away act more than three times with a dog to have him coming proficiently with dummy in mouth. Many people tend to interpret these instructions as walk away 30 feet and then stop and call the pup. The correct process is keep walking silently until pup catches you, then while you are still walking in the same direction, reach down and take the dummy.
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Thanks for the suggestions Robert (and Jim in the next post).

I don't have any problem teaching the dog to come back and give me the object. I don't even have a problem doing it with primarily +r, or even purely +r.

What I don't have is TIME to repair these dogs basics and move them through the exercise I need to teach.

I don't have any problem doing that either, despite the holes in their training.

My question was... If you're +r only... is stepping on the leash not against that theory?

I really have NO PROBLEM with my colleague here stepping on the leash. If fact, I quite like the idea. There's just a flat collar on the dog. It's pretty gentle and has been effective for us in being able to focus on what we're working on vs. continually working on remedial training of basic concepts.

I just wanted to hear what some of the +r proponents attempting to do retriever work had to say about the idea.
 
#54 ·
I wish the UK guys would speak American, Can anyone understand Palomaise on his videos? ;)


QUOTE=Colonel Blimp;1066663]Polmaise posted Robert, I'm somewhat underwhelmed by Rugby; however as an Anglo Irishman living in wildest Wales I have a foot in many camps and can turn my coat as the situation demands.;) The village pub is as you might expect, a hotbed of the Taffia.

If I could trade England's Grand Slam for ten points for the Villa, Wales can bury 'em at The Millenium with my blessing!

Eug[/QUOTE]
 
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#55 ·
Darrin,
Stepping on the leash is fine with me. I do it when I need to. I have my trainers do it (I have trouble getting the trainers to keep their hands off of the rope). I look at it as helping structure the scenario such that the behavior that you want occurs. Then you can pay the behavior. That is the only way to communicate to the dog what you want him to do.
You can accomplish the same thing by putting the dog in hall way and giving him a retrieve. Hallways, however, are not very portable.
 
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#56 · (Edited)
Thanks, Jim. Have you trained any puppies where teaching the command "here" wasn't so easy to do?
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I don't teach "here" as a command with puppies. Commands require enforcing. Until formal OB is begun, the "words" intended for use during formal training are imprinted. When I find myself "making puppies do stuff", it is time to start looking at my teaching skills. It helps to be a good "con artist".

For example, they "kennel up" initially with a treat. "Sitting" can easily be introduced by properly positioning a treat and/or a gentle push on the rump in context. This is not new territory. I don't do teaching lessons once or twice a day. My pups do everything in the context of their daily routine. I'm retired which means I'm always there.

They sit before getting out of crate. Sit when out of the crate to fit a collar on. They are leash broke early on by gently presenting the concept of "giving neck" (living room tethering sessions). Very soon, they walk with a loose leash to the door for airing. They know where they are going. Sit to open and exit doors and sit to be let off the leash once outside. No enforced commands or five minute lessons once in awhile...just simple routines. These are lifelong expectations which puppies are perfectly capable of doing early on.

The rationale is that good behavior is not a five minute drill. The key is that when done in context, very soon the pup will walk near you on a leash because he knows where we are going. He will sit when in front of the door because the door (being in context) "is where I sit". He will sit outside the door because he knows the leash must be removed. I find pups routinely exhibit the desired behaviors because it is normal. It is not unusual to have the pup sitting at the right time without you even asking him to do so. Very early on, the pup learns and accepts the "this is what I do because it is all I know" attitude. It is good to be proactive.

There's nothing wrong about teaching a pup what is check cord is. The problem is check cords are not for fixing "stuff". All too often it is eventually slapped on cold because the trainer is getting steamed at their pup for daring to play keep away.

The usual Internet routine is to answer the frustrated post "My pup is playing with me and I can't get him to bring the bumper back." Well how much time was spent on making it pleasant to return to you? Is the puppy leash broke? Has he ever dragged a check cord behind him and/or been condtition to it? The reply is usually in this context. "No, but I'll put one on him tommorow and he won't get away with that anymore." And the pup doesn't.

There is a huge difference in nuturing vs. demanding responsiveness. With very young pups I avoid "fixing stuff" with demanding presentations where control is the driving motivation. Work on responsiveness first and integrate control when it is age appropriate.

Which means.....no, I do not have any problems getting puppies to come to me WHEN that is all we are working on....and it begins when they are 7-8 weeks old......not when it suddenly becomes a nuisance.
 
Discussion starter · #57 ·
So Jim, when adolescence and drive building creeps up on you and the great behaviors of those puppies begin to deteriorate in exciting situations, I assume you more to a more demanding demeanor?
 
#58 ·
So Jim, when adolescence and drive building creeps up on you and the great behaviors of those puppies begin to deteriorate in exciting situations, I assume you move to a more demanding demeanor?
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Absolutely! Everything is in place to make "keep away' a non-issue the same day the pup discovers it. The best choice is obvious to the pup. Indirect pressure is cool.
 
#59 · (Edited)
Ok, Bridget, I've got this one:

I wish the UK guys would speak American, Can anyone understand Palomaise on his videos? :wink:
Click to expand...

QUOTE=Colonel Blimp;1066663]Polmaise posted Robert, I'm somewhat underwhelmed by Rugby; however as an Anglo Irishman living in wildest Wales I have a foot in many camps and can turn my coat as the situation demands.:wink: The village pub is as you might expect, a hotbed of the Taffia.

If I could trade England's Grand Slam for ten points for the Villa, Wales can bury 'em at The Millenium with my blessing!

Eug[/QUOTE]

Eugene is saying, he not only goes both ways, but many ways (not that there is anything wrong with that). And, he likes to drink and gamble. :D I am not sure what this has to do with training dogs, but whatever..... it's RTF.
 
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Discussion starter · #60 ·
JusticeDog said:
Ok, Bridget, I've got this one:




QUOTE=Colonel Blimp;1066663]Polmaise posted Robert, I'm somewhat underwhelmed by Rugby; however as an Anglo Irishman living in wildest Wales I have a foot in many camps and can turn my coat as the situation demands.:wink: The village pub is as you might expect, a hotbed of the Taffia.

If I could trade England's Grand Slam for ten points for the Villa, Wales can bury 'em at The Millenium with my blessing!

Eug

Eugene is saying, he not only goes both ways, but many ways (not that there is anything wrong with that. And, he likes to drink and gamble. :D I am not sure what this has to do with training dogs, but whatever..... it's RTF.
Click to expand...
Now that there is funny! I don't care who you are!
 
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