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#21 ·
Swampbilly said:
Ahh, yes, yes, yes!
HNTFSH thanks for that.

Still believe I'm overthinking it when it comes to Lardys' CC' concept, ( with a dog that's not been de-cheated or swimby yet).
A mental block that's not yet been overcome.
And to just quickly grab a snippet of what Chris mentioned:



Now Chris complained about the timing of the correction, (which comes with the territiory of non collar), but in the event his P.F Flyers got him there a little quicker, and it was more timely, (and if he did use a stick instead of a audible), I still don't see a difference, whether a command was used or not, between direct and indirect pressure--> the stick touched the dawg.

God help me, I see it as direct pressure either way :cry:
But I know there's a difference.
Click to expand...
Direct Pressure means the pressure occurs at the same timing as the infraction. Ie...dog is walking at heel. You want to use direct pressure on a "sit". You walk dog at heel, while walking, you say "sit" and then immediately follow with a "nick", perhaps while lifting up on a leash, tapping with a stick, etc. That's "Direct" pressure.

Indirect pressure is applied on a command given (and complied with) AFTER the previous command was given and not complied with.

Example: dog is on a point and handler casts dog "over" into water. Dog instead digs back and stays dry. Rather than handler giving an "over" command again, and immediately giving pressure, (Direct). Handler instead stops dog with a sit whistle. Dog turns, sits, and complies with the sit. Handler then gives a nick (indirect) even though pup sat as commanded. The indirect pressure nick on the sit command is for non-compliance with the previously given cast, which pup refused.

Make sense yet?

Forget the stick in my Amish example. The stick has nothing to do with it. The reason I brought up the Amish correction is that I was using indirect pressure (with crummy timing) without understanding it. Dog gets a cast. Dog refuses cast. Dog is given a "sit" whistle, dog complies with sit whistle, but handler goes out there and corrects, not for the sit, which was complied with, but for the previously given command, which got no effort.

Here is the difference. Indirect pressure involves pressure given after the dog complies with the "sit" command. The dog is given the "sit" command AFTER the dog fails to comply with the command issued previously. The most common example I can think of has to do with cast refusals.

The thing that is tough for some of us (myself included back when I was trying to digest this stuff) is that the dog is complying with the sit whistle, yet he gets corrected. Doesn't that confuse the dog? The answer is that when chained together correctly, the indirect pressure helps clarify to pup that he needs to focus and put forth effort on the command given.

How does it work? My answer is that it works great! Some want to know how the internal combustion engine works in detail. Others just want to know how to operate it and then go make it run.
 
#22 ·
Lardy's book states that he looks for behaviors which are lack of effort. These mistakes you look for on the 3 handed casting drill or out in the field. They can be corrected with IP. So you correct on the sit and sequence is "sit" nick "over" and an example Lardy uses is for a dog that freezes when casting and you correct on the sit for cast refusal. (Page 39) He really emphasizes to use this on known commands. DP in my mind can create hot spots when you really don't want so one has to be careful and judicious in their use of the collar. Lately have I have had to revisit this section and carefully go over the use of IP for my dog. I do use the buzz on my Dogtra but am thinking if he ignores the buzz he may need a nick. This is a big step for him, so we are going through the 3 handed casting etc. so he is well versed in the procedure and expectation. This is my interpretation of IP.IMO and hopefully I am interpreting that correctly from the booklet. JP's video was very good and informative. Thanks for sharing it.
 
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#23 ·
Years ago, the late Jerry Harris was helping one of us out to try to grasp the difference between direct pressure and indirect pressure.

Here are his timeless words:

Image
Originally Posted by Unca Jerry Harris


You send your teenage son to the mailbox. On the way he spots the neighbor’s voluptuous daughter in a bikini (factor). He immediately starts in her direction (succumbing to the factor).


You yell (whistle) Son!!!!!! (Handle). His eyes get back into focus and turns toward you and says “WHAT??” (responding to the whistle) For the Amish folks, you walk up to him and whop him upside the head!!! (correction=indirect pressure). You then say ‘You were told to go get the mail, now do what you were told!!!


That my friends is Indirect Pressure and why it works.”
Click to expand...
 
Discussion starter · #24 ·
Chris Atkinson said:
Direct Pressure means the pressure occurs at the same timing as the infraction. Ie...dog is walking at heel. You want to use direct pressure on a "sit". You walk dog at heel, while walking, you say "sit" and then immediately follow with a "nick", perhaps while lifting up on a leash, tapping with a stick, etc. That's "Direct" pressure.

Indirect pressure is applied on a command given AFTER the previous command was given and not complied with.

Example: dog is on a point and handler casts dog "over" into water. Dog instead digs back and stays dry. Rather than handler giving an "over" command again, and immediately giving pressure, (Direct). Handler instead stops dog with a sit whistle. Dog turns, sits, and complies with the sit. Handler then gives a nick (indirect) even though pup sat as commanded. The indirect pressure nick on the sit command is for non-compliance with the previously given cast, which pup refused.

Make sense yet?

Forget the stick in my Amish example. The stick has nothing to do with it. The reason I brought up the Amish correction is that I was using indirect pressure (with crummy timing) without understanding it. Dog gets a cast. Dog refuses cast. Dog is given a "sit" whistle, dog complies with sit whistle, but handler goes out there and corrects, not for the sit, which was complied with, but for the previously given command, which got no effort.
Click to expand...
:cool::cool:
Sheesh Chris-
Thanks. (In my most dumbfounded voice).
Dear Lord, that was simple enough!
I feel really dumb right now.
Got it.

Now get me straight on Stick pressure that you want me to disregard, not sure why. Know that pressure can come from a laundry list of sources, (whether direct or indirect), and to me, no matter what form of pressure it is, each form can change behavior similar to another form, or at least have the same affect.

Can't Stick pressure run kinda' sorta' parallel to Collar Pressure? Know that electricity is different, but have gotten the same result from a tap on the flank as a SIT*tap* SIT as I can a SIT *nick* SIT.
 
#25 ·
Swamp - not to derail this direct/indirect pressure thing but have seen it complicated by what people perceive a dogs reaction to be either vocally or body language.

My current pup at 1 screams like a banshee. Complete Drama Queen. Must be the Cosmo in him. He was through FF a month and when my daughter came home from college and played with him in the yard and started 'rubbing his ears' he complained...lol.

Anyway - what's been your experience and more importantly comfort level with pressure, even if just direct? Confidence goes a long way so understand that's why you're asking about this.
 
#26 ·
Swampbilly said:
:cool::cool:
Sheesh Chris-
Thanks. (In my most dumbfounded voice).
Dear Lord, that was simple enough!
I feel really dumb right now.
Got it.

Now get me straight on Stick pressure that you want me to disregard, not sure why.

Atkinson Response: The reason why is that it seemed you were focusing on the type of pressure, and somehow allowing that to weigh into whether it was direct or indirect. The type of pressure, (collar, stick, yelling "no", etc.) is not a factor in whether it is direct or indirect.

Know that pressure can come from a laundry list of sources, (whether direct or indirect), and to me, no matter what form of pressure it is, each form can change behavior similar to another form, or at least have the same affect.

Can't Stick pressure run kinda' sorta' parallel to Collar Pressure? Know that electricity is different, but have gotten the same result from a tap on the flank as a SIT*tap* SIT as I can a SIT *nick* SIT.
Click to expand...
Atkinson Response: Yes, absolutely, there are all sorts of ways to communicate to the dog. The stick (or another wonderful one is the ROPE) are great tools through which to communicate with the dog.

It's really all about communication and shaping behavior, in my opinion.

And yes, the "many" pelts on my wall are what some would consider mere mousetrap results. They're mostly camo colored packed away in boxes, multi-colored, hanging in my kids' bedrooms, or a few minor stake ribbons. I hope nobody thinks I'm trying to tell someone how to make an NFC. I'm just trying to explain my own personal view of "indirect" versus "direct" in the context of M. Lardy's TRT, TECC and TRM stuff.

Chris
 
Discussion starter · #28 · (Edited)
HNTFSH said:
Swamp - not to derail this direct/indirect pressure thing but have seen it complicated by what people perceive a dogs reaction to be either vocally or body language.

My current pup at 1 screams like a banshee. Complete Drama Queen. Must be the Cosmo in him. He was through FF a month and when my daughter came home from college and played with him in the yard and started 'rubbing his ears' he complained...lol.

Anyway - what's been your experience and more importantly comfort level with pressure, even if just direct? Confidence goes a long way so understand that's why you're asking about this.
Click to expand...
Too funny^^.(Drama Queen stuff).

Have always used a HEELING Stick, but never used a Choker much- x-cept for those occasional "wild childs' who need some x-tra help. I really, really, like Lardys' employing of three forms, (well,.. 4 if when including audibles or 5 if including an ear pinch if neccessary) , of pressure. It makes for a completely different ball game-and for me, a LOT more manageable in terms of training, and with fewer REPS than before.

Inasfar as indirect pressure,( before collar training), it was hard to get it in there, timely , (from a distance either way) as perhaps the "comes with the territory woes" of non-force.

Don't know if I answered your question, (and assumed you weren't talking transmitter level), but am confident, (although I did keep moving along with CC-ing as per Lardy without fully understanding a concept), with using pressure. Glory part is there's more tools in the tool box now.
 
#32 ·
Brokengunz said:
direct and indirect are simple

direct is a correction for A

indirect dog does A, gets command B and correction.
B "indirectly" effects A.
Click to expand...
I wonder how something so simple seems to become so complicated and why must we analyze why it works, it works so other than intellectual curiosity who cares. Almost every correction in the field is the application of indirect pressure, i.e. dog makes a mistake, handler blows whistle and pushes button and the dog complies and sits, the only exception being when the dog fails to answer the whistle so when handler pushes button that becomes direct pressure. The truly gifted trainers are the ones whose timing when they apply indirect pressure is perfect thereby shortening the learning curve for the dog, timing is everything.
 
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#33 ·
HNTFSH said:
That made me laugh...;)
Click to expand...
If you only knew. I wish I would have had the foresight to video our training sessions. Pair an extremely birdy dog that runs with his hair on fire and a first-time trainer, and a great deal of hilarity has ensued. Ask me how I found out it's not a real good idea to train barefooted.
 
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#34 ·
MooseGooser said:
As soon as the dog LOOKED or gave any indication to want dirt,,, I would have blown the whistle, and cast away from shore! as the dog proceeded, if it looked or indicated again it wanted the shoreline I would have whistled and cast away from from again! I would have worked on getting that cast! No correction just attrition, even if I swam the dog a long ways off line from the blind... I want the cast!

There ! Bug in the OIntment!:):)

Gooser
Click to expand...
I may be misunderstanding what you are saying, but I got a pretty good confirmation yesterday that, at least for my dog, that's not the way to do it. I used to start correcting (used here to mean attrition or pressure) on that look, or any indication that something might be about to go wrong, until I finally figured out that I was reacting too early in most cases.

My dog showed me this again in a swim-by refresher last week. Almost invariably, when he knows the over bumper is out there, he is going to bend a little that way and give it a couple looks, which he did, but I decided to put my whistle and my transmitter in my pocket and let him commit. And each time what he did was decide to go to the back pile where he was sent.

Of course, I now wonder how many times I have stopped and recast or stopped and used indirect pressure when the dog was actually going to make the correct decision if I had let him roll until he had clearly made either the right decision or the wrong one.
 
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#35 · (Edited)
If you don't give a command, it's a cold burn.
Example, dog beaches early and you push the button.

If you give a command, and reinforce that command with pressure, it is BOTH direct AND indirect pressure at the same time.
You can't apply indirect pressure without also applying direct pressure. And vice-versa. It's not possible.

The difference is what we are doing with it.

If you are pointing your finger right at the problem with the command you give, that's probably direct pressure.
If you are trying to correct something else, that's probably indirect pressure.

For example, if the dog is rolling on a rotting fish, you could:
(1.) Light the dog up (cold burn).
(2.) Say LEAVE-IT and nick or burn (direct pressure).
(3.) Say HERE and nick or burn (indirect pressure).

Using indirect pressure is "safer" than a cold burn or direct pressure, because the dog isn't looking all over the place for something to "blame it on".

Because, you have a thoroughly conditioned command-pressure association, that the dog understands very well.

But, they still don't like the pressure. So, in the future, they are very likely going to avoid doing whatever "wrong" thing they were doing at the time that they were indirectly corrected.

Even when you force a dog out of a pop, you are primarily using indirect pressure.
Sure, you ARE using direct pressure on the command back. But, you are PRIMARILY using indirect pressure to make the dog less likely to pop in the future.

There does not have to be a refused command, for indirect pressure to be applicable. In fact, those are often the situations that indirect pressure is most useful. When you don't HAVE an enforceable command for exactly what the dog is supposed to do!
 
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#37 ·
I understand JPaul is trying to demomstrate the topic of Indirect pressure with his Video, BUt,

Look at time 5:35 .
JPaul says he is going to help the dog, because clearly the dog is going to dirt. He whistles. gives and right ANGLE back cast. The dog really doesnt take it very well,, and definatly doesnt carry it very far..

So, when Rookie trainer read my post about what In REALITY I would do, I said I would after giving that angle back cast AWAY from shore,, that as soon as the dog even slightly turned its head or thought about going left to dirt, Another whistle,, and another Andle back cast! From them on, I would forget the blind,, and Get that cast, even if it meant swimming the dog way off line of the blind. I want the cast!!

If the dog would have taken JPauls cast at time Mark 5:35, the dog would have been in very good position, and Not got on that point of land. He would NOT have looked up the bank after Jpaul let him beach so as to demonstrate the indirect pressure..

He could have used indirect pressure the same way as when the dog wouldnt take the cast JPaul originally gave, each time the dog looked or even thought about shore,, another whistle,, and another angle back cast, forgetting about the blind,, but using indirect pressure to get the cast!

Am I wrong??

Feel Free!:):)

I'm NOT trying to tell anyone how to make a FC either,, but I think JPaul was more concerened about demonstrating Indirect pressure if the dog beached>>

Gooser
 
#38 ·
Ok, I got a question about timing. I think ive been using direct pressure mostly. I seem to blow the whistle and push button at same time.
Do you blow sit whistle and wait till dog turns and sits then nick whistle. (dog has a slow sit)
Lets say in water, would you blow whistle and wait for dog to turn and settle a little, then whistle nick whistle and wait a couple seconds and cast?
 
#39 ·
Brad said:
Ok, I got a question about timing. I think ive been using direct pressure mostly. I seem to blow the whistle and push button at same time.
Do you blow sit whistle and wait till dog turns and sits then nick whistle. (dog has a slow sit)
Lets say in water, would you blow whistle and wait for dog to turn and settle a little, then whistle nick whistle and wait a couple seconds and cast?
Click to expand...
How come nobody references Lardy's CC book? It is all there.:)
 
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#40 ·
Im a slow learner.
And have caused problems, hoping to fix. I don't think he talks about timing? Or does he?
I guess my question was, do you wait till dog turns around and plants but on ground then nick, or blow whistle and push button instantly after whistle. Iwill re read lardys book. :)
 
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