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#61 ·
JS said:
The timing of the command and the correction ... as I understand it from attending Mike's seminars and as taught to me, and executed by several pros who follow that program ... is NOT a nick while the dog is sitting, but immediately following the command, before the dog gets his butt on the ground.

The message to the dog is,"you aren't sitting fast enough ... now wake up and pay attention!".

If I'm wrong, then I know a lot of other folks who are also. :D

JS
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I don't disagree but what we have learned over the years is that a slow nick ie even after the dog is sitting is still effective when you are using it for Indirect Pressure. I recall discussing this with Mike many years ago. He noted that some of his clients then were always slow but that the dogs seemed to understand the Indirect Pressure and gave good responses. So it is not as critical as one might think. It should however be in the act of the behavior not before. Some of you will note how Hillmann does a lot of nicking while the dog is sitting. He calls that reinforcement. He does this a lot but at very low levels. It does strengthen the sit. JS is right that we are looking for a quicker response. That is affected by e-collar intensity, timing, and duration so it's not a simple case of just nicking sooner although that can help a lot (because some dogs perceive the delayed nick as more pressure).
 
#62 ·
This is a great example of why I say you can't train a dog from a video. In order to try and demonstrate this J Paul needed the dog to do certain things. Frankly J Paul would most likely in a typical day of training would have handled the dog away from shore and kept at it. For those of you, like me, that think he should have handled at least once more before the dog beached, what would you have done had the dog just refused to those casts? You could use attrition, but I'm willing to bet most amateurs would get in a fire fight with a dog that wants shore vs water resulting in numerous corrections in water. Remember your hand in the cookie jar training. I would have probably gave one more cast away from shore, then if the dog decides to go to shore and lands, then boom, hand in the cookie jar. Correction for landing and casting off the land. I then can evaluate, I gave the dog more opportunities to do the right thing but also got one correction for his offense on land. Training is a balance, don't correct in water too many times if the goal is stay in water and don't correct on land too many times when the goal is to get on land.

/Paul
 
Discussion starter · #63 ·
JS said:
The timing of the command and the correction ... as I understand it from attending Mike's seminars and as taught to me, and executed by several pros who follow that program ... is NOT a nick while the dog is sitting, but immediately following the command, before the dog gets his butt on the ground.

The message to the dog is,"you aren't sitting fast enough ... now wake up and pay attention!".

If I'm wrong, then I know a lot of other folks who are also. :D

JS
Click to expand...
I'm hoping a couple things JS-
1- That I did miss the critical timing of that to where it appeared that it was almost a cold burn.
2-That I might receive forgiveness from everyone if I did :oops:

Going to stick my head back in that particular segment later on with a fine toothed comb.
 
#64 ·
To the OP question, my simple view of message to dog in Direct vs. Indirect pressure:
Direct = "Do this" (Back-nick, here-nick, over-nick, fetch-nick)
Indirect = "Don't do that" (handler responds to cast refusal with sit-nick, then repeating cast)
 
#65 ·
Bridget Bodine said:
Allowing the dog to commit to the shore was the biggest stand out. By allowing the dog to commit to go to shore he was in essence telling the dog it was an approved route and then said , "Nope I lied, you can't be there after all" Not very fair to the dog. I also would give the dog a chance , by handling first and then if he blew off the handle, might correct.
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Doesn't this depend on the dog and the training? If we are talking about the initial lesson, which is get wet and stay wet, then really the only wrong decision there is to get dry, isn't it? Hence the reason my pro said what he said about my dog Saturday, which was as long as he stays in the water don't even handle, much less give a correction.

If the dog is already schooled to get wet and stay wet, then it seems to me your conclusion is exactly right. Now we are asking the dog not only to get wet and stay wet, but go in a straight line without much foolishness, which seems to me me to require earlier handling/corrections as you said above.

So much to learn. I wish I was not as addicted to this crazy mess as I seem to be. But I am glad some of you folks are too and are willing to discuss things with a rank amateur such as myself.
 
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#66 ·
knash3 said:
To the OP question, my simple view of message to dog in Direct vs. Indirect pressure:
Direct = "Do this" (Back-nick, here-nick, over-nick, fetch-nick)
Indirect = "Don't do that" (handler responds to cast refusal with sit-nick, then repeating cast)
Click to expand...
That's a interesting way of looking at it. However, do not forget that many other techniques are geared to "Don't do that". For example yelling NO and burning or simply cold burning are also designed to say "Don't do that!" Both are examples of punishment (Stopping a behavior) rather than reinforcement (Increasing a behavior). Both are not good examples of Indirect Pressure in that they are likely to have other consequences. Neither give the dog much information except STOP! In Indirect Pressure usage we always try to tell the dog to do something(like SIT!). The Direct Pressure on Sit acts indirectly to increase the desired behavior(the cast). Used this way, Indirect pressure is Negative reinforcement not Punishment like NO Nick. I too like to keep it simple but sometimes simple isn't so easy
 
#67 ·
RookieTrainer said:
Doesn't this depend on the dog and the training? If we are talking about the initial lesson, which is get wet and stay wet, then really the only wrong decision there is to get dry, isn't it? Hence the reason my pro said what he said about my dog Saturday, which was as long as he stays in the water don't even handle, much less give a correction.

If the dog is already schooled to get wet and stay wet, then it seems to me your conclusion is exactly right. Now we are asking the dog not only to get wet and stay wet, but go in a straight line without much foolishness, which seems to me me to require earlier handling/corrections as you said above.

So much to learn. I wish I was not as addicted to this crazy mess as I seem to be. But I am glad some of you folks are too and are willing to discuss things with a rank amateur such as myself.
Click to expand...
See bold---Not quite--- the wrong decision is when the dog "decides" to head to shore. He is likely to still be very wet! Sometimes that takes awhile to read other times it is obvious. I agree with Brigitte that you don't want a dog to make a wrong decision and condone it by letting him carry on for a long time and then lowering the boom. The best time to change a dog's mind plus have him understand why you intervened is the instant the dog made a wrong decision. Then you can correct if he doesn't take your cast. The purpose of your early cast is to teach him to go straight and not make a decision to deviate to an easier way out. So when I am training I don't "hope" he will head to shore as J. Paul says. Instead, I simply set up a situation where he has to deal with factors. Then when he makes a decision to not fight the factors, I can tell him the correct way. So I don't hope he'll land or even go straight or not. I only hope to "teach" him the desired behavior which is go straight-fight the factors. In teaching a youngster to go straight around water they often get a little too watery. But my goal is not "get wet and stay wet". My goal is teach "go straight". Some days that means a lesson in "get wet and stay wet"-other days it may mean "get on that point". BALANCE!
 
#68 ·
Like I said in my earlier posts. I think Jpaul just got wrapped up in showing what Indirect pressure would be like if the dog got on shore.

His main goal was that explanation, and a Video.
In real life though, when he decided early to " Help the dog", and then got a poor response to that angle back cast, and then ignored that poor rsponse and let the dog beach, I feel, was a mistake!

Like I said, IMHO once you decide to Handel, ang get a cast refusal, In training, the blind is over, and you work on getting the cast.

JPaul could have shown indirect pressure after that cast refusal just as easily by us using a whistle, nick , cast away from shore.


JMHDAO

Gooser
 
#69 ·
RetrieversONLINE said:
That's a interesting way of looking at it. However, do not forget that many other techniques are geared to "Don't do that". For example yelling NO and burning or simply cold burning are also designed to say "Don't do that!" Both are examples of punishment (Stopping a behavior) rather than reinforcement (Increasing a behavior). Both are not good examples of Indirect Pressure in that they are likely to have other consequences. Neither give the dog much information except STOP! In Indirect Pressure usage we always try to tell the dog to do something(like SIT!). The Direct Pressure on Sit acts indirectly to increase the desired behavior(the cast). Used this way, Indirect pressure is Negative reinforcement not Punishment like NO Nick. I too like to keep it simple but sometimes simple isn't so easy
Click to expand...
Dennis, I'm trying to describe a useful, if not sufficient, distinction between direct and indirect pressure. It's the start of an understanding, not the entire story. Not suggesting a correction using indirect pressure is the only "don't do that" message, nor are all 4 legged animals cows. If you view the entire sequence of "Sit"-nick, cast" as a correction using indirect pressure, I suppose the more verbose message is "Don't do that, do this". I hear you re the goal being reinforcement by increasing the compulsion to respond correctly vs punishment for the (willfully) incorrect response. Please excuse my extreme oversimplification.
 
Discussion starter · #70 ·
RetrieversONLINE said:
Anytime you command and follow with a nick whether concurrently or with a slight delay it is Direct Pressure on that command. Sit nick is Direct Pressure on the sit. Delaying the nick does not make it Indirect.[/SIZE]
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Mr. Voigt-
Thanks again for your time here.
Quick question:
If I had a dog 10yds. away and had a 30ft. long HEELING Stick that could reach out there,..and I give the dog a verbal SIT then*tap* SIT, isn't that direct pressure?, same concept similar to collar pressure?
Just a different way of applying it(?)
(Please say yes, LoL! :) )
 
#71 ·
Swampbilly said:
Mr. Voigt-
Thanks again for your time here.
Quick question:
If I had a dog 10yds. away and had a 30ft. long HEELING Stick that could reach out there,..and I give the dog a verbal SIT then*tap* SIT, isn't that direct pressure?, same concept similar to collar pressure?
Just a different way of applying it(?)
(Please say yes, LoL! :) )
Click to expand...
YES! Direct pressure on Sit. Might have Indirect Pressure effects on something else. Like suppose he was whining. PS Hint, the dog could be 1 foot away and you had a 3 foot heeling stick! Sit swat would be Indirect Pressure for whining. PPS Gone training!!!
 
#72 ·
I agree totally, but we come back to why it is difficult to talk with any authority about things you didn't see - you have to know when the dog actually decided, as you say. In the setup we used it would not have been two seconds after he decided to beach (if he would have done that) until he would have been on land, and clearly not where he was supposed to be, and a correction would have been appropriate and understood. And your last sentence makes a lot of sense - that day with my dog the sum total of the lesson was get wet and stay wet. Once we have that clearly established, it will be get wet and stay wet while going in a straight line to the mark. Otherwise, at least to this rookie, you are chasing too many things at one time to be effective at correcting any of them.

RetrieversONLINE said:
See bold---Not quite--- the wrong decision is when the dog "decides" to head to shore. He is likely to still be very wet! Sometimes that takes awhile to read other times it is obvious. I agree with Brigitte that you don't want a dog to make a wrong decision and condone it by letting him carry on for a long time and then lowering the boom. The best time to change a dog's mind plus have him understand why you intervened is the instant the dog made a wrong decision. Then you can correct if he doesn't take your cast. The purpose of your early cast is to teach him to go straight and not make a decision to deviate to an easier way out. So when I am training I don't "hope" he will head to shore as J. Paul says. Instead, I simply set up a situation where he has to deal with factors. Then when he makes a decision to not fight the factors, I can tell him the correct way. So I don't hope he'll land or even go straight or not. I only hope to "teach" him the desired behavior which is go straight-fight the factors. In teaching a youngster to go straight around water they often get a little too watery. But my goal is not "get wet and stay wet". My goal is teach "go straight". Some days that means a lesson in "get wet and stay wet"-other days it may mean "get on that point". BALANCE!
Click to expand...
 
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#73 · (Edited)
That's a interesting way of looking at it. However, do not forget that many other techniques are geared to "Don't do that". For example yelling NO and burning or simply cold burning are also designed to say "Don't do that!" Both are examples of punishment (Stopping a behavior) rather than reinforcement (Increasing a behavior). Both are not good examples of Indirect Pressure in that they are likely to have other consequences. Neither give the dog much information except STOP! In Indirect Pressure usage we always try to tell the dog to do something(like SIT!). The Direct Pressure on Sit acts indirectly to increase the desired behavior(the cast). Used this way, Indirect pressure is Negative reinforcement not Punishment like NO Nick. I too like to keep it simple but sometimes simple isn't so easy


Except in circumstances when "cold burn" promotes correct behavior,,meaning cold burn equals dog doing desired behavior or " do this" Which has a lot to do with how the dog has been conditioned. What the dog is thinking at the time is critical.
which takes you back to the old adage there are no absolutes not even in taxes, death or dog training,,,,
The only absolutes I know of are recorded in the bible.
 
#75 ·
As a novice dog-training outsider looking in I don’t mind adding my thoughts. In my profession I have developed many of the procedures, instruments, and protocols. More or less, it did not exist so I invented it. I’m an international authority. Never the less, routinely someone with similar experience not to mention less experience teaches me something. Thus, as an outsider I look to the experienced individual for depth of knowledge, but I never discount other opinions from those less experienced. This is not to misconstrue that someone should trust my dog training knowledge. I'm simply adding an opinion.

J. Paul wished to demonstrate a concept. I doubt anyone feels he could not have been more aggressive in maintaining his line, yet I’ve seen Lardy tapes where the dog is far more off line, but often the dog makes the correction without influence. Here we are talking about perhaps 20 degrees. At the point the dog gets out of the water, the dog could still have made the correction rather than making a 90 degree turn to the shore. Yes, one could be more proactive, but with so little margin for error, I can see the handler electing to allow the dog to make the decision. I guess one could say that it’s better to handle sooner simply because once you allow that little margin for error, you don’t have the time to correct because the mistake is instantaneous and there is nothing you can do other than use indirect pressure. Perhaps this is exactly what J.Paul wished to demonstrate. Perhaps he encouraged it.

What was the resulting response? The dog ran a water blind straight to the white water pipe in the next run. In other words J. Paul got exactly what he wanted. Perhaps there is more than one way to teach a dog. The day we stop believing that there a better way or an alternative way to do things is the day we stop advancing. I don’t care what profession you are in.

In my own experience when I have a dog that is within 15 degrees of making the wrong decision, do I correct him or do I let him work it out? Often the margin of error is less than 20 feet. If I don’t correct, I’ll not have time to stop his forward momentum. Often, this works against me as the dog makes the wrong decision. In many of the Lardy videos, the dog is perhaps over 50 yard out and 45 degrees off, yet the dog is not corrected and still the dog works it out. Should we be more aggressive when the margin of error is less?

Certainly, I see concerns with this video such as setting a blind next to a white pipe, casting with the wrong arm on the pop, perhaps nicking at the time of the pop, and not correcting sooner on the shore bound line. Then after the indirect pressure off the water exit and sit, the dog took the wrong line on shore and stopped without a whistle Why?

Still it worked and on the next run, the dog hit the white pipe perfectly.
The way I see it is that J. Paul set out to demonstrate something and it played out exactly as he planned. I’m not saying it’s optimal, but how can you fault a guy for getting exactly what he expected to happen especially when the dog performed flawlessly in the next run.
 
#77 ·
JS said:
The timing of the command and the correction ... as I understand it from attending Mike's seminars and as taught to me, and executed by several pros who follow that program ... is NOT a nick while the dog is sitting, but immediately following the command, before the dog gets his butt on the ground.

The message to the dog is,"you aren't sitting fast enough ... now wake up and pay attention!".

If I'm wrong, then I know a lot of other folks who are also. :D

JS
Click to expand...
This is what I try to do and what I believe that Lardy is advocating and that is the timing of the 'sit' command and the nick. I try to give the nick after the whistle and before the dog has completely reached the sit position. It isn't easy to anticipate when the dog will hear the 'sit' whistle so that the nick can be given before the dog's action is completed but if you are carefully watching the dog you can nick as you observe the dog starting to react to the 'sit'. I would amplify this by saying that I had a dog who had major hearing loss prior to three years of age and didn't know it. Beyond 50 yards, I later found out that the dog couldn't hear a whistle. That meant that any time the dog was beyond that distance I was always unknowingly giving direct pressure with a 'nick' as the dog couldn't hear the whistle. Eventually I began getting some popping, which I started to correct with a 'back' , 'nick', back'; again this turned out to be direct pressure. This led to more popping. After I discovered the hearing loss, it took me a LONG time to move past the pops. Following that experience I always try to time the correction before the sit action is completed in order to truly give indirect force.
 
Discussion starter · #78 ·
cubdriver said:
Beyond 50 yards, I later found out that the dog couldn't hear a whistle. That meant that any time the dog was beyond that distance I was always unknowingly giving direct pressure with a 'nick' as the dog couldn't hear the whistle. Eventually I began getting some popping, which I started to correct with a 'back' , 'nick', back'; again this turned out to be direct pressure. This led to more popping. After I discovered the hearing loss, it took me a LONG time to move past the pops. Following that experience I always try to time the correction before the sit action is completed in order to truly give indirect force.
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Oh crap-:eek:
Sorry to hear of your dogs' hearing loss, goes without saying you obviously had your hands full getting all of that straightened out.
 
#79 ·
cubdriver said:
This is what I try to do and what I believe that Lardy is advocating and that is the timing of the 'sit' command and the nick. I try to give the nick after the whistle and before the dog has completely reached the sit position. It isn't easy to anticipate when the dog will hear the 'sit' whistle so that the nick can be given before the dog's action is completed but if you are carefully watching the dog you can nick as you observe the dog starting to react to the 'sit'. I would amplify this by saying that I had a dog who had major hearing loss prior to three years of age and didn't know it. Beyond 50 yards, I later found out that the dog couldn't hear a whistle. That meant that any time the dog was beyond that distance I was always unknowingly giving direct pressure with a 'nick' as the dog couldn't hear the whistle. Eventually I began getting some popping, which I started to correct with a 'back' , 'nick', back'; again this turned out to be direct pressure. This led to more popping. After I discovered the hearing loss, it took me a LONG time to move past the pops. Following that experience I always try to time the correction before the sit action is completed in order to truly give indirect force.
Click to expand...
You still don't get it. Your dog was getting a COLD BURN, there was no direct pressure because there was no command to accompany the correction. He was getting zapped for NO apparent reason to him.
It would have been direct pressure if he heard a command.
 
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#80 ·
picture this . Your dog is on a point of land, you have given an "Over" command. He does not take it, you blow the whistle and give another "Over" command. He does not take it. Instead of using "Over" nick ( direct pressure) I am going to use "Sit" nick (indirect pressure) and then give another "over" with no correction on over
 
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