lining on multiples

blake_mhoona · Jul 17, 2013

so while to dog is out of training for a few weeks due to kennel cough thought i'd ask a question. the no-go issue is pretty much solved pre-kennel cough and when we get back to training we will again start with some easy marks to build confidence then slowly build back to where we were pre-no-goes (re-introduce technical marks with factors)

what is the best cure for locking in on marks when multiples are being thrown? it seemed like when we were doing multiples he'd get so locked in on the first bird after the shot he would not notice my realignment towards the other marks and i would have heel/here him to look at the other mark. being that we are training for field trials i am trying not to have to heel/here him with the whole "no speaking before number is called thing". we have done countless wagon wheel sessions both 8 and 16 bumpers and he moves perfectly without a sound from me. even moves perfectly on the push/pull (i use the Lardy system of moving one foot forward or back to push/pull and rotate knee to move head) for blinds. but you add in a white coat and gunshot and he wont rotate for nothing.

is it better to just let them figure it out on there on? i.e. while he's locked in on the other gun have the go-bird throw and shoot so he'll realize "hey i need to look over here"? couple taps of the heeling stick to get him to turn? (seems like that may get associated with confidence and result in a no-go) more wagon wheel?

and just in case a few ask here's my line routine.
Walk him up to line on the side of the direction the go bird throws. go bird right to left=left side
align with go-bird. say "watch" have him lock in for 3 count
here/heel to memory bird. say "mark" have him lock in for 3 count. signal for marks

and another question for you guys that use a "watch" cue for multiples. if you are running a triple do you show them in order you pick up? order they are shot? left to right?

Breck · Jul 17, 2013

go back to the yard and basic 8 white bumper only wagon wheel or 5 pile 1/2 wagon wheel drill that you say he was good at. except this time incorporate a bird boy in the drill. Wagon wheel only needs to be 25-30 yards. Have bird boy stand at one pile while you work on lining to another. Then add movement. Low swinging bumper, arm up swinging bumper, both arms up waving etc. play around with that for a while. Use low collar nick and no here/heel if dog looks a bird boy. when he locks in on correct pile, Good, right there, back.
Make bumper piles highly visible on mowed soccer field height grass.

Tony Marshall · Jul 17, 2013

I like to use the Danny Farmer method and line the dog up for the go bird and let him turn his head for the memory birds. This way you don't have to mess with getting him to swing. It doesn't distract them so there is no confusion or no-goes.

truthseeker · Jul 17, 2013

I really can't tell for your post where you are on your flow chart. So if you have already done this and are still having problems disregard.

When I am transitioning the dog to the field on multiples. I start with bubbles and I will run the set-up as a single first and then as a bubble. if they are not marking both, I just simplify until they are and move out from there. When they are retrieving at the distance that I want, I will add the third. Again running it as a single first.
Keith

That's " Doubles" Can,t spell for S*i*

blake_mhoona · Jul 17, 2013

truthseeker said:
I really can't tell for your post where you are on your flow chart. So if you have already done this and are still having problems disregard.

When I am transitioning the dog to the field on multiples. I start with bubbles and I will run the set-up as a single first and then as a bubble. if they are not marking both, I just simplify until they are and move out from there. When they are retrieving at the distance that I want, I will add the third. Again running it as a single first.
Keith

That's " Doubles" Can,t spell for S*i*

we are about 2/3 thru transition on the flow chart.

he can mark and retrieve (derby type) doubles fine. its just i'd like to see him swing to the next gun to build for future more complex doubles/triples/etc where he can not only mark the gun station before the throw but also all the factors.

breck i actually considered this type of drill and was hoping someone would say something like that before i actually did it.

John Lash · Jul 18, 2013

The problem you have now is good. Kind of the opposite of head swinging.

I don't know your plans for the future but, have your dog continue to watch the first bird down for a long time in training. A long time, 5 seconds after it hits the ground. Then just shoot the next mark as you move a little to face it. Your dog will learn all to soon what is going to happen next.

As he gets used to multiples you will encounter your next problem, anticipating the next mark to be thrown, or head swinging.

I may be wrong but I think what Breck described is for head swinging.

Breck · Jul 18, 2013

blake_mhoona said:
we are about 2/3 thru transition on the flow chart..

.
OK you're at a perfect time to really solidify your yard work and fine tune how "you" move and communicate (not talking just verbal) with your dog.. Do you use a pinch collar and short training tab? On your wagon wheel stand still. When you move to new pile move just your feet one then the other. Try not to move much else. Teach dog to move in sync with that, look in the new direction and no where else. Once you can do that real well you're cooking with gas.
In the field right now avoid temptation to run doubles and triples all the time. Run mostly singles.
Cheers

PS to clarify what John posted if you do like I described or tried to describe you will have tools to solve both problems. Dog that won't move off of a gun and one that head swings.

truthseeker · Jul 18, 2013

Now I feel better.

Have fun
Keith

John Robinson · Jul 18, 2013

John Lash said:
The problem you have now is good. Kind of the opposite of head swinging.

I don't know your plans for the future but, have your dog continue to watch the first bird down for a long time in training. A long time, 5 seconds after it hits the ground. Then just shoot the next mark as you move a little to face it. Your dog will learn all to soon what is going to happen next.

As he gets used to multiples you will encounter your next problem, anticipating the next mark to be thrown, or head swinging.

I may be wrong but I think what Breck described is for head swinging.

This was exactly my first thought, good problem to have. Since the first bird down is typically the key bird, hardest to remember, it's a very good thing to have that focus. Like another poster said, line his spine up with the go bird and turn his head to the first bird down. A little fore or aft motion by you, slow and subtle, will either push or pull his head to the next gun. If that doesn't work have the gunner make some noise and arm motion.

blake_mhoona · Jul 18, 2013

actually after re looking at flow chart we are about through. still can/need to work on all of it but only things we havent started yet are chinese drills, tune up drills, channel blinds, no-nos and intro retired guns.

i was thinking its a good problem to have but at the same time if he doesnt mark go bird as well he might not get a chance to get the memory bird. especially in derbies where go bird can be a good ways out

ive tried bird boy help but a bird boy waving his arms isnt as interesting as a fallen duck apparently. plus its usually a wide setup so its just barely in the corner of his eye. only thing that gets him off the bird is the gunshot where he has to jerk his head over and see it as its at the top of the arc. if its a plain flat thrown featureless mark hes usually good with just that but add factors and an angle back throw and he lacked the depth and awareness to properly mark it

so breck to clarify do wagon wheel with collar and tab and move just feet one at a time. use tab and collar to correct position. is this in combination with here/heel or silent? heeling stick? do we use gunner scenario you describe in first post? what about throw a mark with gunshot to get him to move off a marks gun sound and throw?

training wise weekdays are singles weekends multiples. 15-20 singles 3-4 sets of doubles a week. sometimes one of double set ups after memory bird pickup will have bird in mouth for long long single.

is my line routine about on par? do many of yall use watch cue? in what order on triples? just for my pure inquisitive nature.

Breck · Jul 18, 2013

Don't rely on gun shots for anything. Actually don't rely on throws either. Think of it this way. When your dog can do a quad and the only shot heard or bird seen thrown by the dog is from the flyer. Do that you're doing something.
So, sort out how you will adjust your training so not to rely on those two things.
.
No stick and don't pull on pinch collar to move dog. Speak softly to dog. Here, heel, no, good. As you get better dog will move with your feet without you saying anything. Same as dog out of position a low bump without saying anything or a soft voice "cue" (something other than sit heel here) will bring dog into position.
Remember when pivoting dog his butt stays in contact with ground until sent.
Remember you need to tie together in perfect sync and alignment Sit, Heel, Spine, Eyes.
.
.so again work on this in yard so dog understands when he is to move with you and it will help.

steve schreiner · Jul 18, 2013

blake_mhoona said:
actually after re looking at flow chart we are about through. still can/need to work on all of it but only things we havent started yet are chinese drills, tune up drills, channel blinds, no-nos and intro retired guns.

i was thinking its a good problem to have but at the same time if he doesnt mark go bird as well he might not get a chance to get the memory bird. especially in derbies where go bird can be a good ways out

ive tried bird boy help but a bird boy waving his arms isnt as interesting as a fallen duck apparently. plus its usually a wide setup so its just barely in the corner of his eye. only thing that gets him off the bird is the gunshot where he has to jerk his head over and see it as its at the top of the arc. if its a plain flat thrown featureless mark hes usually good with just that but add factors and an angle back throw and he lacked the depth and awareness to properly mark it

so breck to clarify do wagon wheel with collar and tab and move just feet one at a time. use tab and collar to correct position. is this in combination with here/heel or silent? heeling stick? do we use gunner scenario you describe in first post? what about throw a mark with gunshot to get him to move off a marks gun sound and throw?

training wise weekdays are singles weekends multiples. 15-20 singles 3-4 sets of doubles a week. sometimes one of double set ups after memory bird pickup will have bird in mouth for long long single.

is my line routine about on par? do many of yall use watch cue? in what order on triples? just for my pure inquisitive nature.

You are correct about it being a good problem ...at the moment...head swinging worse..We shoot and then throw most of the time to be sure the dog is looking at the gunner ...The time will come when you need to be able to move the dog and no shot fired and the watch the bird down and stay there until moved...The need for better communication is plain and you have several good examples on how to improve it....It is a building process....several steps to reach the final out come....Steve S

Lynn Hanigan · Jul 18, 2013

Blake
Dog training is the art and science of getting the dog to do something that he would not normally choose to do himself. There are three basic parts to the problem, TEACH, FORCE, REINFORCE.
It sounds like you have done the teaching part fairly well but you need to learn how and when to force.
When you tell your dog to “Heel” or “Here” you are giving a command that the dog should comply with.
When the dog refuses to comply, you as the trainer are obligated to insist/force. If you do not insist, you are teaching the dog that you can be disobeyed without fear of any correction. This is the single most important thing you should NOT teach your dog.
You have also indicated that you believe that the way to teach a dog multiple marks is to run multiple marks when he lacks the skills needed to do them. The fundamentals of “here” and “heel” must be achieved under distraction before double marks can be run properly
The suggestions you have received so far are all dog and handler friendly but they will do little to teach your dog discipline.
You need to see a set of double marks as an opportunity to force your dog to obey the heel and here commands under distraction even to the point of ruining the memory mark so the dog understands that he MUST move with you no matter how enticing the first bird is.
You can use a short lead or training tab with a pinch collar and/or the Ecollar to motivate the dog to obey line commands but you must DO something.

blake_mhoona · Jul 18, 2013

Lynn Hanigan said:
Blake
Dog training is the art and science of getting the dog to do something that he would not normally choose to do himself. There are three basic parts to the problem, TEACH, FORCE, REINFORCE.
It sounds like you have done the teaching part fairly well but you need to learn how and when to force.
When you tell your dog to “Heel” or “Here” you are giving a command that the dog should comply with.
When the dog refuses to comply, you as the trainer are obligated to insist/force. If you do not insist, you are teaching the dog that you can be disobeyed without fear of any correction. This is the single most important thing you should NOT teach your dog.
You have also indicated that you believe that the way to teach a dog multiple marks is to run multiple marks when he lacks the skills needed to do them. The fundamentals of “here” and “heel” must be achieved under distraction before double marks can be run properly
The suggestions you have received so far are all dog and handler friendly but they will do little to teach your dog discipline.
You need to see a set of double marks as an opportunity to force your dog to obey the heel and here commands under distraction even to the point of ruining the memory mark so the dog understands that he MUST move with you no matter how enticing the first bird is.
You can use a short lead or training tab with a pinch collar and/or the Ecollar to motivate the dog to obey line commands but you must DO something.

i understand all of what you are saying. This thread was speaking to field trial line rules where you are not allowed to speak to the dog after calling for marks. If I was allowed to say here/heel he would and has had no problem lining up for the next bird. It's only when you incorporate the no talking policy when he has a problem. And that's where breck's sentiments go into place. I need more wagon wheel work where he learns what my slight body movements mean

There has been multiple times where he has smashed derby setups but it wouldn't of counted because I had to heel/here to the go bird

Justin Allen · Jul 18, 2013

I had your same "problem" with my dog juice going into the derby last fall. I was about as worried about it as you are, we had tons of trouble seeing the go bird down on wide setups. It actually cost me in the first derby we ran. Only saw one bird in the first and the second was no better. I rarely threw him any multiples, he had probably a dozen doubles and one triple before we started running the derby. We ran the very next day in Atlanta and won. This is the part of my post that is important--(in the third and fourth series he only watched the memory birds to the top of the arch and went to the go bird station on his own. He was locked on the go bird station before the memory ever had a chance to hit the ground. We went from one extreme to the next in a day.)

I only threw that dog 3-4 doubles the remainder of the time we were running the derby, about a two month span. Your dog will figure out how to see the marks, just show him the guns before calling for the birds and he will take care of the rest with just a little help from you. I'm willing to bet you will be wanting to cure a head swinging problem before he ages out. If everything goes to plan and Juice stays healthy he will run the Q this fall. I can assure you when he goes to the line in the first one he will have less than a dozen triples in his life. Right now I think he has about 5-6 under his belt and I'm proud to say I still have a "problem" getting him to pull off of a mark to see the next one in a multiple. I know he can count to three and he knows they don't throw singles in a trial. I would strive to keep this "problem" going.

Mary Lynn Metras · Jul 18, 2013

John Lash said:
The problem you have now is good. Kind of the opposite of head swinging.

I don't know your plans for the future but, have your dog continue to watch the first bird down for a long time in training. A long time, 5 seconds after it hits the ground. Then just shoot the next mark as you move a little to face it. Your dog will learn all to soon what is going to happen next.

As he gets used to multiples you will encounter your next problem, anticipating the next mark to be thrown, or head swinging.

I may be wrong but I think what Breck described is for head swinging.

This sounds familiar and works well. You just have to keep the dog on the gunner before the throw and on the mark after the throw. We are really trying to work on this now.

lining on multiples

blake_mhoona

Breck

Tony Marshall

truthseeker

blake_mhoona

John Lash

Breck

truthseeker

John Robinson

blake_mhoona

Breck

steve schreiner

Lynn Hanigan

blake_mhoona

Justin Allen

Mary Lynn Metras

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