I know years ago many people used white buckets while doing pile work and pattern blinds. My question is why have people gotten away from it now? I have a dog that is 7 months old and I had a prob with force to pile with her. She would run bout 30 yards great but if I moved back any further she would act confused. So I would mark the pile again and she would run great 2 times then Would pop because of confusion. So I pulled out my old white buckets. And now she is 75-100 yards with no problems. She will go hard and never checks up anymore. Just courious why we I quit using them.
visual aids
slick phillie
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I know years ago many people used white buckets while doing pile work and pattern blinds. My question is why have people gotten away from it now? I have a dog that is 7 months old and I had a prob with force to pile with her. She would run bout 30 yards great but if I moved back any further she would act confused. So I would mark the pile again and she would run great 2 times then Would pop because of confusion. So I pulled out my old white buckets. And now she is 75-100 yards with no problems. She will go hard and never checks up anymore. Just courious why we I quit using them.
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Or is it just me that has quit using buckets?
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some still do.
many do not.
it is a crutch.
at some point you have to take the pail away.
and then work through the issue anyway.
it is very much like FF on a table.
at some point you need to go to the ground and teach it all over again so.....
why bother?
many do not.
it is a crutch.
at some point you have to take the pail away.
and then work through the issue anyway.
it is very much like FF on a table.
at some point you need to go to the ground and teach it all over again so.....
why bother?
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Ken that is why I don't use table anymore either. But looking back on all my notes over the years I have never had a prob with using buckets and up to this point I have never had prob not using them. Idk what to do as far as to use or not to use. I mean we use white bumpers amd poles and that is a visual aid for dogs. Is that not the same? We are trying to build confidence in dog to leave our side with out seeing a fall right? Thx again Ken.
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You are correct, but we stopped using any visual aids years ago, because it bailed the dog out. We wanted to train the dog to think and remember the task at hand , not "look for the bucket"..We want the dog to look out and see the imaginary line, follow that line until you either step on a bird or I whistle and tell you to turn in a different direction
we can all guess as to how the white bucket started...it was more out of convenience. trainer goes out carrying a bucket of dummies dumps them in a pile and turns the bucket over to remember where they planted that pile..Cool
Go to a non descript field and out their a white plastic bag flies across the field and lands 40 yds from the blind..at 200 yds that bag looks a lot like your white bucket, where is the dog headed to ?
Success builds confidence, not the sight of a white bucket
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X2 Very well said.
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Traffic cones and plastic stakes are used by pro's today. They may be used as you say as a crutch but also for confidence especially on long blinds say out to 400 yds. Stakes on a water pattern pond is extremely helpful on fine lines. Stakes or cone can also be used on chair blinds. We still do cold blinds. But for every cold blind I probably do 20 stake pattern blinds. A close friend and Pro told me the story of another pro that had qualified a dog for the national's. As time drew nearer the dog seemed to be getting stale and not running hard on his blinds. He re introduced the cones. End of story he won the Nationals that year. You be the judge. Sometimes it's tough to keep the attitude up all year.
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Thx for the input. So when u do plie work u don't put out white bumpers? What is differems in a bag blowing around field and we have trained with white bumpers early on? I have had this happen and dog did suck to bag but it was handling well enough that i pulled it off bag. Well hech even throwing marks they will pull off line on them. Not trying to be complicated but trying to wrap my head around this.
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Bingo!!!! Ask Jimmy Gonia......or Dave Thompson.
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I train with a couple pors over the years that use visual aids. I don't see it as a crusth. It very well maybe but I have had success with it. I total agree that success creates confidence. But in think visual aids help dog be successful.
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Slick so many different ways to do things and in the end it usually all works out.In my program I do a lot of repeating.We may set a triple up at varying degrees of dificulty with a blind and flag.Come back a couple days later and repeat it without the flag.I really find flags helpful when I get to pushing a dog on over land and back into water.Just my thoughts good luck. Jim
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Buckets are good. If they help you use them. They can really help in the confidence department. You'll still run cold blinds too, not just bucket blinds. You'll see if they're helping you or not and you'll act accordingly.
If a dog is doing well without them there's no sense in using them, if a dog needs a little help why not? Yes they probably are a crutch. Many of us need a crutch for a short time.
If you do a lot of blinds with buckets you'll put several in a field at once. The dog won't just run to anything white that he sees. He runs to the white thing you're directing him to.
There's no way to tell but I'd bet that there are more FC's that ran to buckets sometime in their training than didn't.
If a dog is doing well without them there's no sense in using them, if a dog needs a little help why not? Yes they probably are a crutch. Many of us need a crutch for a short time.
If you do a lot of blinds with buckets you'll put several in a field at once. The dog won't just run to anything white that he sees. He runs to the white thing you're directing him to.
There's no way to tell but I'd bet that there are more FC's that ran to buckets sometime in their training than didn't.
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Thx guys! I think I'll use if needed and go without them. Tjx again.
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I could not disagree more!!! Visual aids like posts or buckets are not a crutch. They are valuable teaching tools that help dogs lock in and work with handlers at the line, assist in teaching dogs to run straight lines with factors, help them learn to run with more confidence, and help them handle better at the ends of early blinds. For pattern blinds, for instance I go from white posts with white plastic bags on them to black posts with white surveyor tape to black posts with orange tape. It is a logical progression. For teaching angles across ditches or over obstacles, white posts clearly show dogs the the correct lines on what are abstract concepts in a dog's mind. For teaching something like blinds with multiple re-entries, what could possibly be hurt by having a a visible target so the dog doesn't question where he's going? I will always use them to teach. They are the easiest, lowest pressure way to TEACH many concepts.
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Keeping a dogs confidence up is extremely important!!! If you take that away it is very difficult to get it back, varying on the dog of coarse. I believe concepts are better taught on land and water with a visual aid. Whether it is teaching a dog to fight a factor such as punching through a key hole, or crossing a point on water. It builds confidence, and encourages the animal to LOOK OUT!!!!!!!!!!! Once we get a pattern established we will usually come back a few days later and repeat it without an aid. Some dogs that we get in might run blinds right up to the day or two before a test with an aid. There is several other ways to skin the cat, but this is the way that has worked well for us over the years.
Good Luck!!!
Good Luck!!!
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Keeping a dogs confidence up is extremely important!!! If you take that away it is very difficult to get it back, varying on the dog of coarse. I believe concepts are better taught on land and water with a visual aid. Whether it is teaching a dog to fight a factor such as punching through a key hole, or crossing a point on water. It builds confidence, and encourages the animal to LOOK OUT!!!!!!!!!!! Once we get a pattern established we will usually come back a few days later and repeat it without an aid. Some dogs that we get in might run blinds right up to the day or two before a test with an aid. There is several other ways to skin the cat, but this is the way that has worked well for us over the years.
Good Luck!!!
Good Luck!!!
Thanks for bringing this topic up, as I have struggled with the pros & cons of visual aids for blinds.
Most of the current training resources do not mention their use.
When I think back to my best blind running dogs' early training - I used visuals to TEACH them concepts in a low stress manner, and maintain drive, style, and attitude.
Yes, you do transition off of them, but we also transition off of white bumpers on a golf course too, don't we?
I like the idea of the dog being able to lock on to a destination and learn to handle the factors while introducing blinds.
I currently have a dog who is in early transition. I did not use visuals with her, and she has trouble taking exact lines - she will line out in the general direction, but shows uncertainty. She'll ace all of the wagon wheel drills, etc... in the world, but lacks the trait of "locking on" a line at a distance. She handles just fine.
I think that using visuals will help get her over the hump with lining.
Most of the current training resources do not mention their use.
When I think back to my best blind running dogs' early training - I used visuals to TEACH them concepts in a low stress manner, and maintain drive, style, and attitude.
Yes, you do transition off of them, but we also transition off of white bumpers on a golf course too, don't we?
I like the idea of the dog being able to lock on to a destination and learn to handle the factors while introducing blinds.
I currently have a dog who is in early transition. I did not use visuals with her, and she has trouble taking exact lines - she will line out in the general direction, but shows uncertainty. She'll ace all of the wagon wheel drills, etc... in the world, but lacks the trait of "locking on" a line at a distance. She handles just fine.
I think that using visuals will help get her over the hump with lining.
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I have used this exact same training method. My results are are very good. I find no shame in pulling out some old school training methods. Progression is key here. It was used for only a short time though.
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Wasn't going to go there but I did think bout starting that discussion yesterday! They are OK if use them in the right way. But like u said u can't over do it.
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