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Training Programmes? ...idle curiousity!

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#41 ·
kennel maiden said:
No to all of the above, except a slip lead, which is used to signify the dog is not working, relaxed, and then taken off once work commences, under the judge. No idea even what a 'quirt' is?!! and somebody did try and explain 'heeling stick' to me once, but it looks a bit like a riding crop?..... Don't need any of those things.
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Yes both a quirt and a heeling stick are forms of riding crop. Awesome to see you working in such a positive manner. Wish you success.
 
#42 ·
kennel maiden said:
Thanks everyone for all your useful input. Like I said at the outset, we will probably have to agree to disagree on the use of FF and e-collar. Those are just not 'tools' that I would use, but the structured approach and drills is certainly something that we could encompass in our training a lot more.

I know the differences in our games, particularly when it comes to retrieving over water and use of nose vs eyes, but there are also I believe some fundamental differences in our dogs too. The dogs I work with have biddability in spades, in addition to their desire to retrieve. So, whereas there are a lot of dogs out there that have a huge amount of desire and drive, many of them can be quite self-motivated in that they are doing it for their own love (and I guess this is where you try and square that off with FF? so they do it for you instead of themselves?). These are not the sort of dogs I want to work with. I prefer the ones that are just trying everything to please you (although I am aware of all the literature that says dogs largely act to please themselves...). I'm trying not to fall into the cliché of saying all your dogs are hard-going, headstrong, 'head bangers'!!! LOL but what I am saying is that I believe that some of ours are very much 'softer' and more biddable, quiet and steady, via years of selective breeding. They are triers and aiming to please, and when things do go wrong a quick sharp tone of the voice is really enough to register a 'correction'.

Thanks for all your thoughts. I've found a copy of Smartworks, which I had forgotten I had on my shelf. So, am going to read through that (I already have that Carol Cassidy drill book, which is useful) and try and motivate myself to take a more structured approach to the training of my youngster for the new year.... Happy Training!
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I assume that the reason your sharp tone of voice is effective is because the dog associates it with something bad. You scold it, it thinks, "Ruh oh! I'm gonna get it now!" Otherwise the dog would have no idea that the sharp tone meant something different than a normal tone.

It appears that you believe that the correction you give your dogs by using a sharp tone is more fair than the correction I give my dog using an even tone of voice. I rarely need to press the button on the ecollar because my dog is in the habit of behaving, and my goal is to have my dog perform consistently without threatening her.
 
#43 ·
Good discussion, Kennel Maiden. Please don't take the biased comments personally. It happens when people are passionate about what works for them. And admire you for trying to get organized and more structured for the new year! I'm doing the same and it's a fun project.

I'm glad you have had so much success in the past and I know exactly what you mean about the sharp tone being enough.

Renee, there are some dogs who are born wanting to follow and be good little pack members, more than others. My dog is like this and has made long eye contact with people since she was 7 weeks old or younger. Any slight body movement or different tone, immediately gets her attention and gets her thinking of how to please. It's not that they associate it with something harsh or punitive, it's that they are instinctually sensitive to the difference.
 
Discussion starter · #44 ·
mitty said:
I assume that the reason your sharp tone of voice is effective is because the dog associates it with something bad. You scold it, it thinks, "Ruh oh! I'm gonna get it now!" Otherwise the dog would have no idea that the sharp tone meant something different than a normal tone.

It appears that you believe that the correction you give your dogs by using a sharp tone is more fair than the correction I give my dog using an even tone of voice. I rarely need to press the button on the ecollar because my dog is in the habit of behaving, and my goal is to have my dog perform consistently without threatening her.
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'Sharp tone' is an "ah ah" which is my marker for undesired behaviour, just as 'good girl' is my marker for good behaviour. I wouldn't really call it v threatening!!

I don't believe my correction is more fair than yours Renee! I've never met or passed comment on you or your dogs? Merely saying how I correct. Each to their own....
 
Discussion starter · #45 ·
Jennifer Henion said:
Good discussion, Kennel Maiden. Please don't take the biased comments personally. It happens when people are passionate about what works for them. And admire you for trying to get organized and more structured for the new year! I'm doing the same and it's a fun project.

I'm glad you have had so much success in the past and I know exactly what you mean about the sharp tone being enough.

Renee, there are some dogs who are born wanting to follow and be good little pack members, more than others. My dog is like this and has made long eye contact with people since she was 7 weeks old or younger. Any slight body movement or different tone, immediately gets her attention and gets her thinking of how to please. It's not that they associate it with something harsh or punitive, it's that they are instinctually sensitive to the difference.
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Jennifer, couldn't agree more!! Got it in a nutshell.
Happy training. Looking forward to 2014.
 
#46 · (Edited)
British, Irish, American, Chinese and Indian; they are all just Labs, they are the most versatile dog in the world, and they all have come from the same foundation stock as such they all have the same capabilities to succeed in any venue in any country, selective breeding for certain traits or not. Most of all and what we often fail to remember as we continuously clump these dogs, as being show (pretty yet slow), British(calm and stoic), American Field (Driven and Hard), is that every dog is an individual, every dog has some excellent traits and some that need work, No Perfect dog for any venue was ever born perfect, they were born with potential; the overall inherit versatility of the Labrador breed, and a few extra quirks from their parents. However we fail to realize our part in all of this, we see certain dogs in certain venues, because we ourselves take that potential and develop certain traits. We utilize methods that empathize this over that, to place a dog in a mold of what it should be to succeed in our chosen venue and we often remove individual dogs that don't fit that mold. Yet the lines still cross back and forth and they still all trace back to that foundation stock.

What it all comes down to, I've trained American Field (some are hard and driven, most are normal labs), I've trained a few imports,(some are calm, but they also have the potential to be maniacs, most are normal labs), I've trained show (some are slow with no instinct, most are just normal labs, which were never been developed toward the sport side). Point of it is you want a lab for your venue you buy a puppy from that stock (stack the odds a bit), but we do the Breed and the Keepers of the Breed an Extreme Disservice clumping dogs as being this or that. They are still all Labradors, they were developed for versatility, spectacular dogs for any venue can come from anywhere. That's the Point of having a Lab.

There's Something to be said of a breed where, Joe-Blow with no real dog experience (aka Me starting out); can take a $200 penny-saver Labrador bitch, train her on the weekends (with Water-Dog ;)). Go out and run these HT< FT<OB<A thingies, hunt-track (birds, deer, people) Retrieve (rabbits, decoys, & beer). The dog is very capable and very happy to of do whatever is asked, sleeps on the couch, and rides in the passenger seat the other ~90% of the time.
 
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Discussion starter · #47 ·
Hunt'Em Up - the show and working labs in the UK are now so widely polarised they are almost two separate breeds! So, selective breeding really has taken it's toll. A few are trying for a 'dual purpose' lab again, but are not really attaining that goal. The last time there was a dual champion in this country for labs was half a century or more ago I believe? So, I don't agree a lab is a lab any more I am afraid. You couldn't take a UK show champion lab and put it into the field, and expect it to do anything purposeful. It would likely have a hard attack, and certainly wouldn't be jumping over anything. Likewise, some of our whippety, slim labs would just be laughed at in the show ring! So, I do believe we have moulded the breed for our own purposes. Otherwise we wouldn't all be seeking those special sires/dams to breed from. And the way you have moulded the breed for your game over there, I would contend, is somewhat different to how we are moulding the breed for our game over here. Of course it is. We are selecting the desirable traits for what we want in 'our' breed, be that looks, temperament or trainability...
 
#48 ·
Jennifer Henion said:
Good discussion, Kennel Maiden. Please don't take the biased comments personally. It happens when people are passionate about what works for them. And admire you for trying to get organized and more structured for the new year! I'm doing the same and it's a fun project.

I'm glad you have had so much success in the past and I know exactly what you mean about the sharp tone being enough.

Renee, there are some dogs who are born wanting to follow and be good little pack members, more than others. My dog is like this and has made long eye contact with people since she was 7 weeks old or younger. Any slight body movement or different tone, immediately gets her attention and gets her thinking of how to please. It's not that they associate it with something harsh or punitive, it's that they are instinctually sensitive to the difference.
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I call B.S. Your dog has figured out how to read you. She does not instinctively know that a harsh voice means she is wrong. You have taught her what your body language and tone of voice mean.
 
#49 ·
If it is true that the harsh voice or slight body language clearly etc. etc. is effective, then one could use that instead of the nick from the ecollar to communicate with the dog. Where Lardy nicks his dog, for example, just give yours the evil eye, and you would have the same result.
 
#50 ·
Hey Kennel Maiden

In case you've not heard or read it yet, I'll repeat an old saying. The first time I ever saw it in print online, it was typed by my fingers.

(although frankly, I probably heard it, or something like it, from someone else while training years ago)

Question: What's the one thing two dog trainers are nearly sure to agree upon?
Answer: That the third guy they're talking about is doing something wrong with his training.

I have found that generally, you UK folks are masters at polite disagreement. Some of us North Americans....not so much.
 
#51 ·
kennel maiden said:
Hunt'Em Up - the show and working labs in the UK are now so widely polarised they are almost two separate breeds! So, selective breeding really has taken it's toll. A few are trying for a 'dual purpose' lab again, but are not really attaining that goal. The last time there was a dual champion in this country for labs was half a century or more ago I believe? So, I don't agree a lab is a lab any more I am afraid. You couldn't take a UK show champion lab and put it into the field, and expect it to do anything purposeful. It would likely have a hard attack, and certainly wouldn't be jumping over anything. Likewise, some of our whippety, slim labs would just be laughed at in the show ring! So, I do believe we have moulded the breed for our own purposes. Otherwise we wouldn't all be seeking those special sires/dams to breed from. And the way you have moulded the breed for your game over there, I would contend, is somewhat different to how we are moulding the breed for our game over here. Of course it is. We are selecting the desirable traits for what we want in 'our' breed, be that looks, temperament or trainability...
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That is sad to hear. I thought only the US had messed that up!
 
#52 ·
I agree with you all !:D
For what it's worth KM ,and coming back to your original post. I believe we (uk) do have programs ,but probably better described as a 'Process' or 'Processes' that (we) as trainer/handlers follow,and if each part of the process is not completed then we don't proceed to the next Level.
So there is a Program! and it is usually unilateral following all the basics and yard work that is done on both sides of the pond and beyond!...For those that persue 'competition' This Process/Program takes off in a tangent to suit and follow the rules ,regulations and standards for the competitions We are involved with.

There are some dogs that just don't fit' into (our program/process) in the UK ! That's why there are so many moved on as 'Not suitable for trialling?,So (we) can't say that (we) have the breeding right!

There are also many in the US that are moved in the same fasion ,and that may be due to the 'program' that the dog is on with whatever handler?.

In the 35 years I have been involved with Retrievers ,I know one certain thing ''None of them get up in the morning and decide they are gonna get this drill wrong! and none of them get up in the morning and decide they are gonna get this drill right!''....

Over the last 5-6 years I have learned from friends/colleagues in the US to incorporate many of the practices in Retriever training which has helped me to become a more 'systematic' and precise handler,and I can assure our friends accross the water that there are CC and FF ,and FTP methods used for Retriever training in the UK. (we) just ain't got Swim By yet;).Probably because It's not a priority ''Yet''?

KM ,I believe is a positive trainer but not the puritanical version that is normally associated with the term,but Positive in the way that if the dog is already doing what you want 'Then why tell it'. She also operates at the highest level of competition. Now I however have the enviable task of working with all them dogs and owners who get the 'NOT SO GOOD' :D

Like Chris said/quoted, Yea! , But there is common ground somewhere!? Jeezus! All mine are now cast off with a left hand! and they now do Right and left hand heeling!.....A few handlesrs I seen on the second day at The IGL Championships are doing the same ;)

Now KM , You must come up here to the frozen tundra again,I know you like Scotland,lets do some training on straight line blinds across 5 bodies of water with a few distractions on the way ;)
BTW, These Mericans are not all bad! They just shout alot! :D
 
Discussion starter · #53 ·
mitty said:
I call B.S. Your dog has figured out how to read you. She does not instinctively know that a harsh voice means she is wrong. You have taught her what your body language and tone of voice mean.
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Wow Renee, you really are the dog guru. I bow down to your superior knowledge - just your diplomacy is a little lacking!
 
#56 · (Edited)
kennel maiden said:
Hunt'Em Up - the show and working labs in the UK are now so widely polarised they are almost two separate breeds!.
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Welp with that stand point the only solution is to split your breed, Make you some U.K. Gentleman hunter Dogs, close your books to only a select group of field labs, those running & succeeding in the trials you choose. Throw out the majority of Labrador populations; the Show, the true working labs (seeing eye, detection, SAR), the Pets, the fanciers moving blood Internationally. It's only with closed books, and successive generations of off-spring; that you'll have solid proof of a different type of dog with different and defined characteristics. Until then blood and genes from the overall Labrador population will still go in and out, those pesky pets and working dogs will continue to cross the field and show lines back and forth. Until there's a definite split; A Lab is a Lab, out of the same foundation stock, anything can be crossed to anything, it'll still be registered as a Labrador. Myself I prefer not to trade in generalities; I'll just do what I've always done take an 8wk-6mt pup, train it for it's owner wants-needs (hunting, trials, therapy, SAR, what-have you), and actually see what it can do. I can't say I'm a fan of a big-ole show CH that comes out and tries to prove his field instinct by running working certificate, who at 4-5 yrs. old hasn't done anything but prance in a ring. However I've learned not to tell people, what their dog can and can't do, and I definitely won't say anything about any puppy's (out of any lines) potential. You start saying such to certain people and they make it their mission to show up at your trial and serve you a nice plate of crow.

Generalities are true, only until they aren't; Had 2 show type labs, fall out of a mini-van and stomp my test. Both with a much drive as any Field stock. I didn't think Tanks could move like that. One passed, One broke on honor, beat the working dog to the bird. I don't blame the working dog; it's pretty intimidating to have a Rhino charging at yah with a bird ;). Now is this the norm? Perhaps not, but I won't be telling that handler that her dogs are not suited to the task. (crow served and eaten ;))
 
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#57 ·
In the UK ,Eric Begbie ''tried to do a spreadsheet thing'' that according to some was a bit clinical and never allowed for the indivisual, and the Gundog club uk tried to almost make thier so called program a 'patent' ?,which wanted money for a run down on yard drills that could be found in the childrens library section I hear?.

Opportunity exists for an experienced Collar trainer from the US To 'Show us the way'? ;)
 
Discussion starter · #58 ·
polmaise said:
In the UK ,Eric Begbie ''tried to do a spreadsheet thing'' that according to some was a bit clinical and never allowed for the indivisual, and the Gundog club uk tried to almost make thier so called program a 'patent' ?,which wanted money for a run down on yard drills that could be found in the childrens library section I hear?.

Opportunity exists for an experienced Collar trainer from the US To 'Show us the way'? ;)
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Didn't we export one a while back?!.... Comes back here periodically to supply commentary at the Home International.
 
#59 ·
kennel maiden said:
Didn't we export one a while back?!.... Comes back here periodically to supply commentary at the Home International.
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Ahh!! but he has been 'Americanised' lol ..He did do a 'so -called ' collar roadshow ! , but it was just with his mates and had a good time with expenses :D
He knows I'm having a larf!;) :D
 
#60 ·
Renee, it's true my dog does know that when I say "no" it means I want her to stop doing what she's doing. I've even said it pretty sternly at times when I catch her eating cat poop in the woods. But I've never hit her or paired the word "No" with any physical aversive, chase down or other such threat. There are other dogs at my kennel business who hear my stern "No" and could care less. Some dogs are more sensitive and responsive than others. Some are born to lead and others to follow. My current prospect (Flyer) is super sensitive and responsive. My older washout show golden (Buck) acts deaf if I want to redirect his behavior. Not very sensitive or responsive. I'm not a good enough trainer to make much out of Buck, but I think Flyer is going to help me quite a bit!
 
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