Has anyone seen or is it legal to have a blind that could not be lined? In other words, a blind with obstacles a dog would have to be handled to go around. Would it make sense to use this type of set up in a training situation?
lining blinds at master level test
emmylan
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So Skyy, are you saying that if your dog is on a dead perfect line to the blind, not screaming so fast that he is going to over run it, you are going to blow that whistle and cast? That appears almost as blatant "showing off" as lining. (If indeed it was a true line). And I disagree with you. Teaching a dog to truly line a blind does take all three of the attributes you have listed!
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I think that a dog that lines a blind absolutely show trainability, control and perseverance. If the dog was not "trainable" he would not be able to line the blind, if the dog did not possess perseverance then the dog would not fight the factors to remain on line with out a cast, and as for control may this doesn't give the handler a great opportunity to showcase the dogs control, but I could not justify stopping a dog that has done correctly fighting factors (wind, terrain, obstacles, etc.). When I blow the whistle I expect the dog to the he is going in the wrong direction and he/she better change direction to complete the task. I guess that would be my "need" to line a blind at a hunt test.
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I also agree with what John Robinson said. There is a BIG difference between a Banana job with a wind save at the end and truly lining a blind. If a dog is off - line most of the way and the handler doesn't make an attempt to correct the line and the dog winds the bird and runs 40 yards over to it at the end... they may "think" the dog lined the blind, but I would send 'em packing for failure to challenge the line.
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That is exactly what it shows. That is definitively how a dog can demonstrate those traits. Have you had a dog line a difficult blind at a test or trial? Were you disappointed? If you lined the blind your dog did exactly what he was told Why would you not want him to do that?
If a blind is being lined by too many dogs that's a judging problem. They have failed to set an adequate test for the field of dogs. But if a sound, challenging blind gets lined, that dog gets the highest score I can give.
Evan
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Great topic - at a recent master Ht the blind was between the marks and had about a 40 yard angle entry to the water then maybe 20 yards of water and a up and out of 10 yards. The blind was outside a fall area about 10 feet and that area was just before the water entry. The air temp was 70 and the water was warm, the wind was light and mostly behind you or you were running downwind. The entry was about 5 ft to the right of an angling toward you bank. The cover was very light so dogs could see well and you were running slightly downhill.
What you saw was basically 3 things. Teams did the work, teams had multiple cast refusals to get in and some got in and others didnt and finally the handlers that let the dogs banana around with no whistle.
First 10 years ago you would have never seen this blind at a ht as it was a challenge and the team needed to be schooled up on this type of work. There will be those that say this is not the intent of Ht however the dogs are so well trained at this point that standing on the water edge to test the dog would be a waste of time.
I am not sure if anyone lined the work but it could have been. I thought it a good use of sidehill, angle entry and bank angles.
The hard part is how to judge and use the standard and by no means am i pitching the judges under the bus. How many cast refusals, how blatant a non challenge to the line do you allow? We get all levels of opinion here and the replies will be interesting.
Dk
What you saw was basically 3 things. Teams did the work, teams had multiple cast refusals to get in and some got in and others didnt and finally the handlers that let the dogs banana around with no whistle.
First 10 years ago you would have never seen this blind at a ht as it was a challenge and the team needed to be schooled up on this type of work. There will be those that say this is not the intent of Ht however the dogs are so well trained at this point that standing on the water edge to test the dog would be a waste of time.
I am not sure if anyone lined the work but it could have been. I thought it a good use of sidehill, angle entry and bank angles.
The hard part is how to judge and use the standard and by no means am i pitching the judges under the bus. How many cast refusals, how blatant a non challenge to the line do you allow? We get all levels of opinion here and the replies will be interesting.
Dk
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5,349 Posts
Oh that's all; lining a dog up perfectly and running a straight line through hazards, tight windows, fighting factors, no big deal I guess. Sounds easy to me. You must line a lot of Master lever land and water blinds. Do you stop your dog on line then cast back and forth just to prove you have good control over your dog?
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Not to de-rail the current side track conversation about "lining a blind" but more back to the OP......I was always under the opinion that a blind was supposed to be laid out in such a way that your dog "Could" line it if they take the initial line and hold it all the way. That may not be the case. Not so long ago we had a master test where the blind was set in a "dog leg" pattern where we were instructed to put the dog on a point and then at about 45 degrees and 60 more yards away was the bird. I remember the discussion at the time of whether that was a legal blind or not. Any opinions?
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It is not legal, read the rule as quoted by Bubba, though that might pertain more to a land blind.. I remember lining a blind in a NAHRA test up in Canada a long time ago, the gallery jokingly I presume, said, "yeah, but can he handle". I used to think about a hunting scenario that would require a dog leg, picture running down a hill, through an open gate in a fence, then cast at a 30 degree angle to the bird. That said, on a typical water blind these days, many points are kind of high so that a dog on the correct line may be out of sight for quite a while behind the point. I have learned to cast fat off the point in order to keep my dog in sight rather than lose him, even though he's swimming, behind the point but a little off angle toward shore. The dog leg designed blind does keep the dog in sight in-route to the bird.
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I agree John. If the judges cannot use what is available to construct a challenging blind you need new judges, not some goofy trick like that. Okay, experienced judges, what are you supposed to be judging when you set up a land or water blind? Please keep it simple and to the point (no pun).
Evan
Evan
I'd have to disagree with that if you are talking obstacles that a dog can not navigate in a straight line. Factors such as water, points of land, wind, navigable cover, ect.. absolutely as long as it is feasibly possible for the dog to get there in a straight line without giving in to various factors.
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I don't know what the HT Rule Book says, but here is what the FT Rule Book says:
The Rule Book contemplates the possibility of lining a blind, but notes that lining will be improbable. Also a straight line would be the "most direct route." I also note that "lining" is not listed as a serious, moderate, or minor fault by the Rule Book. In contrast, failure to "hold a line" is a fault.
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To be clear, this is what I was asking. I am now painfully aware that there are factors that you need to fight (sidehills, squaring ditches and roads, wind, etc.), and those are just part of a good blind setup. I would also agree that if you have a dog really line a well thought out multi-factor blind, then the dog has absolutely demonstrated all of the qualities you would want.
Yes Seriously....95% of most blinds in a MH stake are jokes and usually run with some type of Banana effect......But the handlers still walk back to there trucks saying " Yep, He/She Lined it !!!! "
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Skyy, that right there is the reason for the discussion here! A blind that is TRUELY lined, no banana, no wandering and sob, that is carried through factors like cover, hillsides, wind and poison birds is the UTMOST demonstration of control, train ability and perseverance. Any fool that would interrupt such a performance to demonstrate that his dog will sit or cast deserves whatever outcome he gets. A handler that believes just picking up a bird from any angle was "lining the blind" should be penalized as appropriate.
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Don't try to read too much into it. Anyone with experience and common sense understands what "obstacle" means when discussing dog work.
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Where are you running Master stakes? The moon? Geez!
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They might be extremely surprised if they looked at their score for that type of performance.......-Paul
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Let's see. Running a straight line in a strong cross wind on the back side of the flyer station doesn't show trainability. Rowdy and I strongly disagree.
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If Skyy is being disdainful about those people who think they lined the blind by getting the bird without a whistle or handle, even though the dog skirted all the hazards and didn't fight factors, I agree with him. In those cases most judges also see it our way and will drop that dog like a hot potato. Where I disagree with Skyy is the way he or she evaluates a true line job.
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