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dtvm7469

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Discussion starter · #1 · (Edited)
I am new to the forum, hope I am not posting an old chewed up subject.

I am interested in finding out if anyone uses Mike Gould's & Dan Watson's influence handling technique's on their pups?

Dan, my son, worked with Mike Gould through the 80's & 90's and he appears in some of Mikes book's. Recently I got to watch Dan do some of his influence handling and was impressed on how the technique's worked.

OK, I am his Old Man so I am a little proud of the guy, but setting that aside the system works if you have several pups the same age to train. Dan usually trains the whole litter. He starts them at 12 weeks.

Does anybody out there use these handling techniques?

I have been posting short sample videos that show Dan with some 8 month old pups, the pups have not had any obedience training. The first video shows Dan walking with the pups. Scroll down in the reply's there is a second video showing how the pups work as individuals.

It's kind of hard to explain but the only word Dan uses in the field for the first 6 months is 'Hup" when he moves to birds he includes "Dead". When I trained French Brittany's I had a whole repartee along with a bunch of expletives.

Here is a link to a video that shows a pup being controled by handler movements. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqVG6n1e6H0


 
#2 ·
Never heard of this fellow Dan Watson. Someone mentioned the other fellow on the forum a couples days ago.
Not sure this program would be helpful to me. Not being a stick in the mud either. But I like my puppies to be well versed with several commands by 6 months. They also do a puppy obed class and puppy agility class by 6m.We visit nursing homes after their shots and go all sorts of places with them to socialize.??? Hup ??? IMHO
 
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#3 ·
Having googled Mike Goild I am pretty confident that very few here are able to telepathically handle their dogs which is how I read his description of handling. I am always hesitant to believe or follow Anyone who's bio includes "Worlds Greatest".
Ringling Bros Regards
 
Discussion starter · #4 ·
Raymond Little said:
Having googled Mike Goild I am pretty confident that very few here are able to telepathically handle their dogs which is how I read his description of handling. I am always hesitant to believe or follow Anyone who's bio includes "Worlds Greatest".
Ringling Bros Regards
Click to expand...

I Googled Mike Goild also but could not find anything about "Worlds Greatest" is he a dog trainer?
 
#5 ·
I'm pretty much a renowned expert on "Under the influence Handling" and offer a seminar called "Drunkworks" at a low low introductory price.

Sobriety is for those that can't handle regards

Bubba
 
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#10 ·
dtvm7469 said:
What I am trying to find out is, Does anyone know of this type handling?


They do more than that, below is a link to a simple video, it isn't much of a video I only had a few hours.


Click to expand...





I personally don't understand what this type of handling is supposed to achieve. I think a dog at 8 months old certainly should have obedience down pretty well. I would no way ever throw a pigeon and let 2 dogs retrieve it together nor would I just throw bumpers and let 3 or 4 dogs compete for it. I see absolutely no discipline or team work in this type of handling and I don't agree with it. Looks more like stuff a pointer guy might do rather than retriever training.
 
#11 ·
Steve Shaver said:
I personally don't understand what this type of handling is supposed to achieve. I think a dog at 8 months old certainly should have obedience down pretty well. I would no way ever throw a pigeon and let 2 dogs retrieve it together nor would I just throw bumpers and let 3 or 4 dogs compete for it. I see absolutely no discipline or team work in this type of handling and I don't agree with it. Looks more like stuff a pointer guy might do rather than retriever training.
Click to expand...
The embolden above is the truth. Traditional retriever trainers interested in field trials, HT's, and waterfowl hunting will probably have little appreciation for or use for such methods. However, as an upland hunter I understand the concept. I've read Mike Gould's book The Labrador Shooting Dog; Training the Labrador Retriever as an All-Around Sporting Dog and appreciated it. Another favorite is Ben O. William's book Bird Dog, which is about training upland pointing dogs.

I take my dogs to the woods and fields with me as I work as a professional forester. No leads, no e-collar, just my voice and my "influence". We form a partnership and become teammates. It doesn't prepare a dog for the rigors of traditional competition, but goes a long way toward working together in the upland field.

Swack
 
#12 ·
Swack said:
The embolden above is the truth. Traditional retriever trainers interested in field trials, HT's, and waterfowl hunting will probably have little appreciation for or use for such methods. However, as an upland hunter I understand the concept. I've read Mike Gould's book The Labrador Shooting Dog; Training the Labrador Retriever as an All-Around Sporting Dog and appreciated it. Another favorite is Ben O. William's book Bird Dog, which is about training upland pointing dogs.

I take my dogs to the woods and fields with me as I work as a professional forester. No leads, no e-collar, just my voice and my "influence". We form a partnership and become teammates. It doesn't prepare a dog for the rigors of traditional competition, but goes a long way toward working together in the upland field.

Swack
Click to expand...
Plus hunting wild birds, the less noise you and your dog makes the better...that is a big plus in influence training for upland hunting wild birds.
 
Discussion starter · #13 ·
A little about how influence handling works

1. Why,

In the 80's and 90's there where several shooting preserves starting up in the west. The preserves needed a supply of trained gundogs of all the major hunting breeds. At that time Mike Gould was in charge of the kennel and hunting operations at the Flying B Ranch located in central Idaho. Mike understood that his system of handling would help develop started pups ready for obedience and field work with fewer washouts than the traditional chain gang one on one system. Dan Watson was tasked with doing the handling. Here is how Mike rates my son:

I'm writing this as a personal reference for Danny Watson. Danny worked for me as a shooting dog trainer and hunting guide and also went on the road with me working dogs in the Colorado and Idaho high country.

Over the past 44 years I've seen many young aspiring trainers come and go. Danny was the best of the lot. He has a very natural style and always took everything I said to heart. He's truly one of the good ones. I featured him in two of my books, The Labrador Shooting Dog, and Plateaus of Destiny. He was also in several of the videos we shot for the Outdoor Channel on TV.
Danny is the consummate outdoorsman in many ways, and certainly has the knowledge to bring any shooting dog, of any breed, to the top of his game.

Mike Gould
Grand River
August 4th, 2014

2. In a nut shell, How.

Using the dogs natural pack instinct the handler exposes the pups "as many as 22 at once" to different environments several times a day. These environments gradually get more extreme.

During these exercises the pack bonds with its handler, the handler controls the packs distance and direction by body movement and one word Hup, "means look at me"

The "training" is done by the bold puppies showing the timid puppies how to do it. Everything from, noise, retrieving , guns, birds, water, cover, crowds, parking lots, what ever.

The pups you see in this video have had only two trigger words spoken to them in 8 months, "Hup" and "Dead" "Except when Dan's brain slips into obedience mode"

Obedience is done after the influence handling is over. Some owners want to do their own obedience training based on their needs and hunting environment, trainers like the handled pups because the can finish them quickly.

Once again the only reason I started this thread is to find out if any other handlers or trainers use this system to start their litters?





 
#15 ·
dtvm7469 said:
Once again the only reason I started this thread is to find out if any other handlers or trainers use this system to start their litters?
Click to expand...
As Swack's suggested, something similar is quite common in the pointing dog world, with the object being to condition the dog to take responsibility for keeping track of his handler and stay to his fore and sides. After a time, it at least seems that the dog is anticipating the handler's moves, and he likely often is. Though I got my start in what Gould calls "influence training" bringing on pointing dogs, I've done essentially the same with my last couple retriever pups as a means of encouraging independent search.

At the time I read Gould's book, I was doing a good bit of work with cattle and, through trial and error and paying attention, bumbled into a system of spacial influence that would allow me to walk even the most rank animal into a pen, as if I controlled a powerful physical link between us. So, naturally, Gould had my attention when he said he could control a distant coyote's movements with his "influence," and we became correspondents, and I thought friends, for a time. (Was even kind enough to give me a copy of the Plateaus of Destiny book you've mentioned.) But I never could pin him down on his use of influence beyond the type I was familiar with from pointing dogs. And he apparently tired of my trying and acted as if it were a betrayal of our friendship.

Aside from that, I found his an interesting voice that, like some others that are railed here, probably would have enjoyed a greater audience and influence had he not been so dead set on pitting his perspective against the mainstream's. It's good to hear that he's alive and, hopefully, well.
 
#16 ·
I've seen this type of handling done personally by a trainer in Arizona named randy. He works with gsp's and would only use a couple of commands. The dogs worked in a pack and would follow by his movement. It's amazing to see a group of 30 dogs all work together. I wouldn't try it with labs but it seems to work in the upland world.
 
#18 ·
Temple Grandin speaks of something similar to "influence" in handling cattle.
 
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Discussion starter · #19 ·
Establishing a foundation

jhnnythndr said:
You almost describe it as a way to mass produce passable dogs for pen raised birds and clients who dont have dogs themselves... But surely that wasn't your intent.
Click to expand...
The videos an my comments here are a feeble way of trying to explain the building of a foundation that all other training can be based on, field or trial.

By using pack peer pressure to get the pups to a point where the handler, with the least amount of human interaction, can evaluate each pups true inherent abilities +/-.

Most traditional training programs are fundamentally based on this same principle but, they do it one pup at a time with much human interaction. Which can sometimes cloud the evaluation.

The breeders like this system because they can get quick feed back on how their breeding program is working.

As far as birds go, Dan said, Use whatever it takes to get the true inherent prey drive established then add a 100 more for fun




.
 
#20 ·
dtvm7469 said:
The videos an my comments here are a feeble way of trying to explain the building of a foundation that all other training can be based on, field or trial.
Click to expand...
Was the thread title "Influence peddling?" - 'cause really you ain't explaining much of anything, but you're huckstering a h*lluva lot.

"A foundation that all other training can be based on, field or trial" - that's a stretch that surpasses the Snake River Canyon when it comes to retrievers, old buddy.

MG
 
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