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Tightening hunts???

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#21 ·
I have used short marks into cover. I've used either a frozen pigeon or tennis ball that's scented and nasty. Have mark be short enough that dog can go right to spot but has to work to root it out. Tennis ball or small bird will fall deep into the high stuff and they have stick with it to find it a foot or two down in the thick grass. This is what I recently did with one that did exactly what you describe. Could mark the fall but terrible at digging out the bird.
 
#22 · (Edited)
Scott Adams said:
Dr. Ed,
Are you meaning that the gunner moves around the field for each mark, or is he stationary and varying the throw between angle back, flat and angle in?
What is the gunners response when the dog starts to leave the hunt area?
Click to expand...
The marks are generally in the 50 yard range as previously described because it is repeated and distance is not the issue . The thrower does not move but he moves the throw in the general area of the fall in response to the dog's action on previous throws. The first mark is a normal 20-25 yard right angle (to the dog) throw. Each subsequent throw is made so that if the dog returns to the previous fall he will not find the bumper but will have to hunt. For example on the initial run dog goes under the arc and hunts deep, the next throw is slightly longer from the gun and in toward the dog. Typically subsequent throws are not drastically different, the goal being to help the dog identify an area. With each subsequent throw the goal is to make the dog hunt and with the typical one each throw is further from the gun and in toward the dog with one or two further from the gun and angled back. I usually throw one hard back during the course of things to interrupt the hunt pattern that typically develops and usually like to end with a long right angle throw. In a typical session you might do 8-10 repetitions depending on heat and fatigue. When the dogs get good at it they will start marking individual falls. It is most effective when done several consecutive days and then revisited from time to time as needed. An experienced thrower learns to read the dog's mistake and compensate with the next throw. We have gotten so good at it that we rarely discuss it, only if we have reached an appropriate time to stop either because of fatigue or because the dog has gotten sharp. As with anything from session to session I would vary the throws from R to L to L to R unless the dog has a particular weakness on one vs the other which some do.

I am certain that many people do something similar this is just what we have done successfully for many years and explained as well as I can with a tiny keyboard. I hope this is clear, if not I will further expand on it.
 
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#27 · (Edited)
Thanks for the awesome description Dr. Ed.

The thing that struck me and the reason I asked the question (about where the dog went) is that I consider a "downhill in-throw" an advanced concept for a young dog. This was pointed out to me by a seasoned trainer / RTF'r who won't likely make an appearance here but having had a dog fail at this same scenario he said to me "look at it like the dog would".

The point was that the last place the dog likely saw the bird was at the top of the hill. Once the bird begins falling past that point, it blends into the background. It takes an experienced dog to follow that bird all the way to the ground.

From the OP's answer this sounds like a young pup who thought that bird was on top of the hill in question and wasn't going to be told otherwise.

Teaching the AOF as well as the appropriate response to "gunner help" would seem to be foundation exercises before throwing a mark like this for a youngin.

Do you guys teach the dog what "hey hey" from the gunner means in a specific manner, or do they just get enough re-throws early on to pick it up?
 
Discussion starter · #28 ·
Yup Darren....indeed a down hill in throw up wind is about as tough a bird as can be thrown for all the reasons you pointed out. (this one was at least down wind). They have to mark them!! If not they just don't find them well at all. Hence...I like to at least teach them young. But I have learned from the weekend (and this mark helped me learn it) that the pup needs to learn to find birds better before advancing further into the more difficult concepts. Yesterday was a bunch of walking single stand alones (couldn't finds Ed's great thrower to help) into a variety of covers. Some improvement already.
 
#29 ·
Scott Adams said:
Dr. Ed,

What is the gunners response when the dog starts to leave the hunt area?
Click to expand...
Sorry I did not address this question in my original answer. This is typically a no help event regardless of the absurdity of the hunt. These are typically high energy young dogs who like to run which is sometimes misinterpreted as unable to mark. I would normally let the dog hunt unless the hunt put the dog in some type of physical jeopardy (over heating or dangerous terrain) or it popped. Since gun help is what we typically do first these dogs have already had an abundance of help and have not responded appropriately. A more or less defined area of the fall is something they need to learn through their own experiences. Make sense?
 
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#33 ·
Once they get the hang of it and you want them to hunt longer you can hand toss one off to the side and pull the bumper, after they have displayed an acceptable level of tenacity slip the bumper in when they aren't looking.
 
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#36 ·
BJGatley said:
I was referring to the OP's question and not your mark drill. I will use quotes next time. :)

Thanks,
Click to expand...
Gotcha, should have viewed your suggestion in that context but then I had prior knowledge he had already tried that
 
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BJGatley
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