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Is Hillmann's Fetch command as strong as the traditional ear pinch fetch in the end?

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Clintonb

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Discussion starter · #1 ·
Hi Guys,
Just wanting some advice/ feedback on Hillmann's Fetch Vs the traditional ear pinch fetch from those who have used both in the past or have used Hillmann's fetch successfully.
I have seen Lardy's material many times and I am familiar with his force fetch procedure but want to know if in the end if Hillmann's method produces the same solid result if followed.
I have watched Hillmann's fetch command DVD may times but I am not sure how he deals with a dropped bumper/ bird other than picking it up and asking the dog to hold again, what happens if the dog after sometime just refuses to "Fetch" on command every time.
I see Lardy's method much simpler in you correct for refusals and dropped bumper/birds.
Looking forward to some advice/ feedback/ tips/ tricks.
Thanks
Clinton
 
#2 ·
I trained my dog (3 yo blf, very sensitive, high desire, with master passes) using Hillmann and was very happy with it. She is my first and only trained dog so no experience with ear pinch. The Hillmann method definitely teaches and reinforces a very very solid fetch. I can and have commanded my dog to fetch various "not normal" items (keys, hammer, etc.) and never had a refusal. I also see a definite compulsion to fetch when given the command. So, no I don't think you'd see a real difference in the command fetch, refusals, etc.

With that said, I think the difference you MAY see between ear pinch and Hillmann FF is the working through pressure part. The earpinch seems to require the dog to think through and work through noticeable pressure while Hillmann seems to condition the retrieve almost subconsciously through barely percieveable nicks and many, many repetitions. I'd be interested to hear if anyone who has done both, especially those who have done several of both think that there is a difference in the ability to handle pressure between the two methods.
 
#3 ·
I have trained a number of dogs through the traditional FF methods using the ear pinch over the past 15 years. Approaching 20 successfully force fetched retrievers. My last dog I purchased Bill's first DVD and also attended a two day seminar with Bill when my pup was about 6 months old. I saw how Bill did the FF with the light collar live an in person. I had not used Bill's approach to the FF however and my dog was already well into the FF process when I attended the seminar. I will continue to use my traditional ear pinch method however. I am not taking anything away from Bill's methods. They obviously work for him and many others who have adopted his methods. But my thoughts on the ear pinch is that I believe it is clear to the dog who/where the pressure is coming from...ME. I feel the dog learns that I am the person creating the pressure and it develops a healthy respect for my role as the dominate "character in the story." The collar I don't believe instills the same interpretation by the dog. His neck gets tingly when he is encouraged to fetch, but does the dog know where the tingly sensation comes from, from where it is generated?

I like everything else Bill does and will continue to use his methods. I may just be a little too much of an "old dog" when it comes to the FF methods.

Just my opinion. It certainly does not have to be the right way for everyone.
 
#4 ·
My methods have developed and independently evolved very similar to Hillmans I think which I find interesting. In that I initially use subconscious or as I have referd to it as subliminal re-enforcement's during yard work which can begin as early as 3 months. and also extend it to marking. Years ago I did train using what would be categorized as traditional methods. So may be my perspective may help.

When using low intensity training you will need to learn how to communicate in low intensity. This requires more repetition for conditioning. The good thing about this is that one has to be incredibly inept at training dogs to mess up the dog. If one is a skilled trainer he can get the dog trained in considerably less time,BUT If a new handler comes in weather experienced or not the dog will be loose until the method used is learned and used. The same can be said for traditional training,,but I think traditional has a longer shelf life up front.
Traditional training gives you a tighter dog that can be used to some extent by a brand new handler until those effects of training wear off because of lack of experience and proper maintenance.

To better answer your question about how a dog can accept higher pressure with ear pinch , traditional high pressure methods compared to hillman methods is that a dog needs to understand high pressure if you are going to try to communicate what you want in the field using high pressure.

The remedy is to increase the pressure near the end of yard work in a way the dog quickly understands and keeping his drive up where it is supposed to be. so that you can utilize more pressure if you need to. You will eventually need the dog to quit doing something and quit doing it NOW especially if you re on a time frame and must get things done on a schedule. I find that a blend of both subliminal or subcouncious training coupled with traditional produces really nice stylish dogs very quickly.
The hard part is gaining enough experience to do this.

As far from competing in open FT I can not say,, but it does work well for dogs at least to the q level and HT master work at an early age If the dogs are so inclined.

Pete
 
#5 ·
To answer your question is going to sound confusing. But all dogs are different. My dog would not hold without FF. He knew the fetch command but would NOT hold without pressure. The nick was not working.After going thru FF that hold issue was gone. I have all Hillman videos and don't remember him dealing with hold command.
 
#6 · (Edited)
All my previous dogs were forced. With Pounce, I am in new territory. Therefore, making a comparison is based purely on conjecture in the present perspective. First of all, I would not be taking this different approach if I didn't think the end result would be an improvement.

This is just my opinion. Traditional force fetch with the ear pinch and subsequent training is driven by a great deal of consequences. Habits/standards are then established by corrections and repetition. Results vary according to the trainer's skill and a dog's potential.

With Hillmann, I see my pup repeating behaviors which are then reinforced producing habits. The idea is to channel a pup into the "This what I do and it is all I know how to do mode".
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The difference is I am now attempting to learn and apply techniques which cause a pup to repeat correct behaviors. Therefore, "teaching" is a bit more difficult because consequences are not part of the equation. I have to work at eliciting responsive, positive behaviors and rewarding the correct behaviors rather than forcing them.

In comparison, force based training involves more of a consequence/reward process and the other is more of a manipulation/reward/repetitive process. Results in either approach will vary based on how well the consequences or manipulations are managed.

The question about how "strong" the results are (in any program) will depend on trainer skills in staying the course and the potential talent of the pup.

The key difference (and the reason I'm going with the new program) is the idea of excellent behavior in drive......in any venue (training, hunting or competing).

I will say this from the first few months with Pounce, Hillmann's program has tested my will power. The consequence of not using formal consequences has been challenging.
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#7 ·
KwickLabs said:
I will say this from the first few months with Pounce, Hillmann's program has tested my will power. The consequence of not using formal consequences has been challenging.
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Click to expand...
I know how you feel!!! I'm a couple of weeks in with Hillmann on a 12 week old pup that absolutely goes nuts when we go out to "work" (walking on lead, sitting, retrieving). She's constantly biting the lead, shaking it and jumping up trying to get the bumper...sit is our biggest challenge right now! I've been keeping the "workouts" short (5-10 min) and by the end of each one she does a lot better, probably just from getting tired. We've definitely got the "desire to retrieve" part and excitement down good, I'm just trying to be patient that eventually "sit" will sink in her head!!!
 
#9 ·
I love the way Hillmann starts pups. Will absolutely stick with that.

But I used Farmer/Aycock for Basics, FF/CC and Pile Work.

Sometimes I wonder if TRT covers all this start to finish and
if it gives a better chart of when to do what. Not just the Printable Chart.
 
#10 ·
I've been keeping the "workouts" short (5-10 min) and by the end of each one she does a lot better, probably just from getting tired.

My sessions are quite a bit longer. We have sessions where things improve greatly and when on a roll....stopping is the last thing on the agenda. So far I've never seen her tired. Usually, we stop when I'm tired.

Walking on lead is the "biggest slice" of time with "sit" about half that. She does not need me "to pump her up". Presently, the "excitement switch" is almost too easily engaged.

The plan was to have a pup that I could train in "drive". Be careful about what you wish for.
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#11 ·
I was reading something the other day about not being able to argue with anything that is very vaque or abstract. There is also some other rule of human nature where we naturally assume things that naturally come to mind, so who knows.
 
#14 ·
Do any of you that use the Hillman puppy method with the early reinforced fetch go through traditional FF once formal training begins in the Lardy or Smartworks programs?

Those that haven't, how does the pup/dog perform with working through pressure later? I consider pressure also as any distractions that may cause a pup to ignore its job.

I can see us going through a traditional FF once formal training begins, and I am expecting it to be much faster and maybe with less pressure.
 
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#15 · (Edited)
It goes back to low pressure reinforcement training vs. higher pressure avoidance training.

I'm in Pete's camp from the standpoint that the less experienced trainer runs less risk with Hillman than something with more intense pressure applied.

In both cases though, one has to learn to read a dog and understand when reinforcement is appropriate and when it isn't.

Bill's method does depend on the dog wanting to fetch fairly heavily. If the dog has no excitement toward chase I can see it being tough to execute whereas... with traditional methods... I can see being able to take a dog that doesn't want to fetch much and being able to reinforce the behavior through compulsion.

Hopefully we're not dealing with a whole lot of those dogs in HT or FT work.

I have seen plenty of them in other venues that worked with a less than stylish attitude. They worked... but I couldn't stand to own one.

Here's my Hope doing a wagon wheel with low pressure reinforcement. I have no idea how many reps I reinforced here but it is far more than you would if you only did lack of effort with a higher level.

Low level is just a different game. You reinforce more often and depend on the habituation of behavior much moreso than the dog learning to "avoid" or "turn off" pressure once it's applied.
 
#16 ·
Dustin D said:
But I used Farmer/Aycock for Basics, FF/CC and Pile Work.

Sometimes I wonder if TRT covers all this start to finish and
if it gives a better chart of when to do what. Not just the Printable Chart.
Click to expand...
It all started with Rex Carr and was taught to them,the rest is trying to "re-invent the wheel" or polishing at best.Just my humble opinion.
 
#17 ·
Terry Britton said:
Do any of you that use the Hillman puppy method with the early reinforced fetch go through traditional FF once formal training begins in the Lardy or Smartworks programs?

Those that haven't, how does the pup/dog perform with working through pressure later? I consider pressure also as any distractions that may cause a pup to ignore its job.

I can see us going through a traditional FF once formal training begins, and I am expecting it to be much faster and maybe with less pressure.
Click to expand...

I used the Hillman puppy method going through all "28" lessons. I took longer but got all the concepts done without much issue. I just got done doing FF with the Lardy method - using his whole program. This is my 3rd dog to FF so I'm no expert. Based on my limited experience, this FF was very easy. He knew fetch and hold to a tee before we started formal FF. In 8 sessions I was ready for three leg casting. My criteria to move from one concept to the next was how fast he complied. I hardly got any refusals, only twice where I continued ear pressure and got the point across with minimal struggle. I worked on stable sit (not going for the bumper until commanded) and staying at heal after picking up the bumper on walking fetch almost as much as FF. Stick fetch was very easy too. I am really worried I am missing something because it went so well. I did see some avoidance the first session of walking fetch where his heel was very far from me. The reading I've done suggests he might be sensitive which they say should make it easier to train. The owner of his brother says he is sensitive too. The casting has gone well. He was trained with treats on casting as a puppy so it wasn't a big deal. I did get a couple of refusals when I first went to a pile on my over cast (single bumpers had no issues) I ear pinched to the pile once and the light went on so I'm attributing it to confusion due to a pile versus one bumper. My hope is that it was confusion and not a lack of FF.

During our marking session today i did some three hand casting in the snow and cold without issue - my yard work has been done inside. I also commanded fetch on a bumper in the snow as we were working on obedience around the truck and he went for it very fast.

I would be interested in peoples opinions on if I did the right thing or if I should have done more sessions as a matter of protocol. His brothers FF was done by his owner another amateur and he said it went very fast for him as well.

The first dog I FF I used the process from Robert Milner's book "Training the Retriever for the Duck Hunter" and it had significant sessions of repetition despite the performance of the dog. It seemed like I wore that dog out into complying which took over 3 weeks to get through the program. The Lardy method seemed more fair to the dog being based on performance.

I would be very interested in peoples opinions on FF being completed in so few of sessions - because it seemed too easy and I really want to do a good job. If I didn't do a good job, when will it show up - force to pile? Thanks for your constructive thoughts.
 
#18 · (Edited)
"I would be very interested in opinions on FF being completed in so few of sessions - because it seemed too easy and I really want to do a good job."

A pup's force fetch via Hillmann's process is based on producing a consistently solid response because of many repetitions with low level re-enforcement. The issue is in defining what "many" means. Using higher levels of pressure, the ear pinch method generally reduces the number of reps required. Patience and swimming upstream are not necessarily common choices.

This suggests an explanation that if the ear pinch is necessary....after the assumed completion of a Hillmann FF process than "many" may not have been enough. Taking this one step further, if a high pressure approach is layered over the low pressure Hillmann and it went very quickly.......was it even necessary?

Of course, since many trainers seem to be changing "dogs in the middle of the field", this issue will not soon go away.
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#19 ·
Bill has personally trained a bunch of derby champions, how did those do long term and what does that tell us about the success of his methods? Are any of those owners/trainers available to tell us if they went back at 2+ years old and did tradition FF? It would be cool to know.

I say Bill's method applied consistently throughout the dog's life will be just as good and less risky for the novice trainer, but that can only be proved with feedback from people who ran his dogs at an advanced level.

I'm not sure I have heard any of our amateurs say "I traditionally FF for years and made several FC's that way. Now I'm making FC's using Hillman".

That would be the proof in the pudding.
 
#20 ·
I am currently training my first dog. He is 15 months old and we are about half way through Pile Work with Lardy. I started him out using the Hillmann Puppy DVD. I was pleased with the results. We moved from Hillmann into Lardy when it came to formalizing obedience. From there I used the traditional FF method of Ear Pinch. I liked the idea of the Hillmann method but as a rookie and novice trainer I wasnt sure that I was going to be capable of reading the dog or using a collar in order to complete the training that way. They may have been ignorant on my part but the real deciding factor was that I had people around me and close to me that could help me through FF with Ear Pinch. I am happy with the way it turned out and will most likely continue using ear pinch.
 
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