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#2 ·
I was training my GSD for shutzhund. And got a couple they were pretty good. But the Michael Ellis ones are pretty awesome ! I have several of those. Very good trainer with a different approach. Kinda like the hillman of bite work training. Lol
 
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#4 ·
Don Lietzau said:
Anyone on here have any experience with the Leerburg Dog Training dvds?
Thanks
Don and Crew
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Short answer is "no", I have not seen any of their DVDs. But I have visited their site quite a few times and read a lot of their stuff (they have a LOT posted on the site) and I think his knowledge and approach regarding how dogs learn is very solid. And his explanations are also very good.

Working with dogs is the same in principle, no matter what end result you're looking for. The application may differ but the principles are the same. There are better sources for specific retriever goals but for a lot of the questions/problems broached here ... particularly basic behavioral issues ... they have some helpful information.

JMO

JS
 
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#5 ·
JS said:
Short answer is "no", I have not seen any of their DVDs. But I have visited their site quite a few times and read a lot of their stuff (they have a LOT posted on the site) and I think his knowledge and approach regarding how dogs learn is very solid. And his explanations are also very good.

Working with dogs is the same in principle, no matter what end result you're looking for. The application may differ but the principles are the same. There are better sources for specific retriever goals but for a lot of the questions/problems broached here ... particularly basic behavioral issues ... they have some helpful information.

JMO

JS
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Yes! For example:

A key concept is capping a dog's drive:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0Y3HVWbJ7s

The same concept in retriever training:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1cPpWXeFnc
 
#8 · (Edited)
KwickLabs said:
I'm not sure "keeping the dog guessing" about what's next is the same thing.
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The key concept is capping.

Capping is where you teach the dog to go from an active state to a "capped state" where the dog puts its energy into a contained obedience behaviour.

Once the dog understands, the obedience behaviour is stimulated by excitement..
the example Micheal Ellis gives is so a dog sits really fast, taking that excitement energy and shunting it into the obedience behavior.

Here is another example from Chris Akin:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EkDCjucfwCg

And how "negative markers" make the dog "try harder":
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kk6bWoD5E0c
 
#9 ·
"Once the dog understands, the obedience behaviour is stimulated by excitement..the example Micheal Ellis gives is so a dog sits really fast, taking that excitement energy and shunting it into the obedience behavior."

Well, if the obedience behavior is "sit" why would you have to re-heel the dog? Are you saying that re-heeling re-enforces sit? If "sit" were taught properly....so that it were stable......there would be no need to re-heel. Apparently, it may be too difficult to "cap" excitement with a simple "sit" command.

Also, re-heeling a dog after watching a mark go down "sucks" momentum big time. I guess less momentum provides more control.
 
#10 ·
KwickLabs said:
"Once the dog understands, the obedience behaviour is stimulated by excitement..the example Micheal Ellis gives is so a dog sits really fast, taking that excitement energy and shunting it into the obedience behavior."

Well, if the obedience behavior is "sit" why would you have to re-heel the dog? Are you saying that re-heeling re-enforces sit? If "sit" were taught properly....so that it were stable......there would be no need to re-heel. Apparently, it may be too difficult to "cap" excitement with a simple "sit" command.

Also, re-heeling a dog after watching a mark go down "sucks" momentum big time. I guess less momentum provides more control.
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I don't understand..where do I re-heel?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1cPpWXeFnc

Re-heeling to me is means a steadiness failure, if you mean re-heeling after a dog creeps...in that case I would deny the retrieve reward!
 
#12 ·
KwickLabs said:
Are you saying that all that motion promotes steadiness?
Click to expand...
Your are going to have motion on walkups which are required in AKC MH tests.

1) Having the dog sit in the holding blind while moving back away from the line well behind the holding blind counters the trigger of removing the collar from the dog
(see Dave Rorem's DVD for an excellent discussion of these types of triggers).

2) Starting with the dog coming to heel away from line helps enforce to the dog that the handler is "leading the parade".

3) Switching sides helps me as a handler read my dog...how well is he working as a team member?

4) Auto-sit helps both the handler and the dog focus on the marks up ahead in a walkup or jump shooting.

5) Auto-sit helps promote steadiness since it is an internal motivation, not an external control...the more exciting the better!

(At least for me and my biddable labs...)

I should also mention that auto-sit results in the ultimate reward when jump shooting late season mallards on tiny spring fed creeks!
 
#14 · (Edited)
First of all, I have no problem with MS's training videos, skill or results.

I understand the Leerburg and Akin videos, too. Where's the connection other than just citing two videos?

What needs to be explained is just how the video of a dog going through a series of successful and well done OB maneuvers before getting to run a mark after sitting is related to the Leerburg video in terms of "capping."

"Capping" means all the high energy demonstrated just before saying "sit" is now focused by the "sit" command and ready to be released. I don't see how "here, heel", a couple of strides of auto heeling and a verbal "sit" is high energy "stuff". The only thing I see is a dog being asked to do some OB so as to be under control and steady when the time comes. It may be excellent training, but is it really "capping"?
 
#15 ·
Capping" means all the high energy demonstrated just before saying "sit" is now focused by the "sit" command and ready to be released. I don't see how "here, heel", a couple of strides of auto heeling and a verbal "sit" is high energy "stuff". The only thing I see is a dog being asked to do some OB so as to be under control and steady when the time comes. It may be excellent training, but is it really "capping"?
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I would agree with Jims's assessment
Pete
 
#16 ·
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#17 ·
KwickLabs said:
First of all, I have no problem with MS's training videos, skill or results.

I understand the Leerburg and Akin videos, too. Where's the connection other than just citing two videos?

What needs to be explained is just how the video of a dog going through a series of successful and well done OB maneuvers before getting to run a mark after sitting is related to the Leerburg video in terms of "capping."

"Capping" means all the high energy demonstrated just before saying "sit" is now focused by the "sit" command and ready to be released. I don't see how "here, heel", a couple of strides of auto heeling and a verbal "sit" is high energy "stuff". The only thing I see is a dog being asked to do some OB so as to be under control and steady when the time comes. It may be excellent training, but is it really "capping"?
Click to expand...
Excitement is "built up energy".

Auto-sit is the capping behavior...the excited retriever sits every time the pace slows (the cue),
the excited retriever sits (caps his energy or excitement) because he thinks that
if he sits quickly and is steady, that behavior will trigger a shot live flyer.

He is not commanded to sit, he learns "self control" leads to a high value reward.

The excitement is internally controlled (capped) by the retriever into a contained obedience behavior ( a steady sit)
which ultimately triggers the reward (retrieve).
 
#18 ·
Mike Sale said:
I was training my GSD for shutzhund. And got a couple they were pretty good. But the Michael Ellis ones are pretty awesome ! I have several of those. Very good trainer with a different approach. Kinda like the hillman of bite work training. Lol
Click to expand...
Yes!

Although much of Michael Ellis videos come from the shutzhund culture,
I think there is some good stuff there that is used (sometimes incorrectly used!) in retriever training:

Incorrect low level ecollar stimulation:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJ2jQf2TSFk

Operant conditioning:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUA5kCZe8nY

Escape Avoidance Training:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HDZqVpGVy60

Classical Conditioning:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2wQdqa2WfzU
 
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